Troll Lord Games

Rigon wrote:I think the only thing that would need to be changes is Combat Dominance. Other than that, I think the fighter is pretty solid as a class.

R-

I'm going to test out a change in that. The Fighter can use it against opponents who are 3 or more HD lower than himself.

Treebore wrote:Mileage does vary. I've played fighters several times in C&C, ran them several times using my house rules, and by the book, their +2 or so to hit and damage, depending on level and specialization, just doesn't measure up to Paladins or Knights or Barbarians. Plus their Combat Dominance occurs far too rarely. So I made Combat Dominance apply at any time, against any level, as long as they are fighting 3 or more opponents at one time, and when it happens, they kick butt. Plus usually take a beating while doing it, because their opponents usually have Flanking bonus, and even attacking from behind bonus, while they do it. Is it over powered? Not in my experience. When they are able to do it they are like a Mage throwing a 3d6 Fireball in a 5 foot radius around themselves. Not all that powerful, but still pretty cool.

Relaxo wrote:

I'm going to test out a change in that. The Fighter can use it against opponents who are 3 or more HD lower than himself.

I was gong to say don't change a thing, but this might be a good idea. or maybe ater level 6 it starts working on 5 or fewer less.HD

mbeacom wrote:Love the fighter as is. No changes necessary. I think any character class that puts more of the onus on the player to be creative (as opposed to offering more and diverse mechanics) can seem underwhelming if you don't have particularly creative players. Perhaps I'm blessed as my players have a great time with the fighter and they've never fallen behind, even in long campaigns.

Treebore wrote:

mbeacom wrote:Love the fighter as is. No changes necessary. I think any character class that puts more of the onus on the player to be creative (as opposed to offering more and diverse mechanics) can seem underwhelming if you don't have particularly creative players. Perhaps I'm blessed as my players have a great time with the fighter and they've never fallen behind, even in long campaigns.

To me its not necessarily a matter of "falling behind". Its a matter of not being as cool as the other fighter type classes in the first place. Do fighters get to add a bonus to his allies equal to his CHA mod? Nope. Does he get a permanent Protection from Evil? Nope. Is he immune to Disease or get to Cure Disease or do any kind of healing? Nope. What does a Fighter get? Up to a +2 to hit and damage with one weapon, a +1 to BtH, and multiple attacks versus 1 HD creatures at 4th level, until 10th level, then they get a second attack per round. So just an underwhelming class from the start. Still, been pretty easy to spruce up with some simple modifications.

Treebore wrote:I think it also has to do with how we run our games. I find it pretty much a complete waste of time to use 1 HD creatures when the group starts to get to about 5th level. Right after the level fighters even begin to pick up Combat Dominance. I am far more likely to use creatures with 2 or more HD. So in my games Fighters will rarely ever even get to use Combat Dominance. So a totally wasted ability in my games. Because I think each of their Class abilities should have the potential of being used in any encounter, just like the abilities of every other class do. Plus I have always had a thing for pictures of fighters wading into large numbers of enemies and cutting them all down as they try to cut you down. My current House Rule, which I call "Mass Combat Dominance" not only makes it useful, period, while at great risk to the Fighter, but also allows them to do precisely what I imagined.

So with my house rule, their Class ability of Combat Dominance will be able to be used in every single encounter, because the HD of their opponents no longer matters, and they get to be the combat machine I like to envision them as.

Lord Dynel wrote:

Treebore wrote:

mbeacom wrote:Love the fighter as is. No changes necessary. I think any character class that puts more of the onus on the player to be creative (as opposed to offering more and diverse mechanics) can seem underwhelming if you don't have particularly creative players. Perhaps I'm blessed as my players have a great time with the fighter and they've never fallen behind, even in long campaigns.

To me its not necessarily a matter of "falling behind". Its a matter of not being as cool as the other fighter type classes in the first place. Do fighters get to add a bonus to his allies equal to his CHA mod? Nope. Does he get a permanent Protection from Evil? Nope. Is he immune to Disease or get to Cure Disease or do any kind of healing? Nope. What does a Fighter get? Up to a +2 to hit and damage with one weapon, a +1 to BtH, and multiple attacks versus 1 HD creatures at 4th level, until 10th level, then they get a second attack per round. So just an underwhelming class from the start. Still, been pretty easy to spruce up with some simple modifications.

Well said, mbeacom. But I can definitely understand where Tree is coming from. I don't intend this to sound derogatory (and my apologies if it comes off that way) but I feel his issues are on his end. Meaning, it's not an inherent problem with the class. Tree doesn't feel the class has enough "umph" and I can see his point, even if I don't necessarily agree. That's why I think it's best to keep the class relatively basic in its nature. Not only does that maintain the base flexibility of the class, it allows for easy "table fixes" and house rules for the individual CKs. I've always felt it's easier to add to a class than it is to take away...as he said, it's easy to modify the class to spruce it up. The comparison Tree makes with the paladin is definitely valid - though the paladin has a strict moral code he has to maintain and more XP to gain per level in trade for those nifty abilities.

mbeacom wrote:

Treebore wrote:I think it also has to do with how we run our games. I find it pretty much a complete waste of time to use 1 HD creatures when the group starts to get to about 5th level. Right after the level fighters even begin to pick up Combat Dominance. I am far more likely to use creatures with 2 or more HD. So in my games Fighters will rarely ever even get to use Combat Dominance. So a totally wasted ability in my games. Because I think each of their Class abilities should have the potential of being used in any encounter, just like the abilities of every other class do. Plus I have always had a thing for pictures of fighters wading into large numbers of enemies and cutting them all down as they try to cut you down. My current House Rule, which I call "Mass Combat Dominance" not only makes it useful, period, while at great risk to the Fighter, but also allows them to do precisely what I imagined.

So with my house rule, their Class ability of Combat Dominance will be able to be used in every single encounter, because the HD of their opponents no longer matters, and they get to be the combat machine I like to envision them as.

Are you saying you make sure that something causes disease in every encounter your Paladin is in? Because we sure don't play that way. We've never had the expectation that "each of their Class abilities should have the potential of being used in any encounter". Quite the opposite actually. We've played with the expectation that the more powerful an ability is, the less frequently it should come into play. I guess I never really thought of it like that. I suppose if you expect every power or ability to be relevant in every encounter, the Fighter certainly might seem underwhelming. But if you don't think about it that way they're honestly pretty awesome. Their basic bonus advantage and multiple attacks basically mean that creative players have a better chance at pretty much every single thing they do in combat. Everything. That's pretty awesome. Almost over powered in practice in my games. And once players figure that out, they're trying all sorts of crazy attacks because they have a better chance at succeeding.

Treebore wrote:

mbeacom wrote:

Treebore wrote:I think it also has to do with how we run our games. I find it pretty much a complete waste of time to use 1 HD creatures when the group starts to get to about 5th level. Right after the level fighters even begin to pick up Combat Dominance. I am far more likely to use creatures with 2 or more HD. So in my games Fighters will rarely ever even get to use Combat Dominance. So a totally wasted ability in my games. Because I think each of their Class abilities should have the potential of being used in any encounter, just like the abilities of every other class do. Plus I have always had a thing for pictures of fighters wading into large numbers of enemies and cutting them all down as they try to cut you down. My current House Rule, which I call "Mass Combat Dominance" not only makes it useful, period, while at great risk to the Fighter, but also allows them to do precisely what I imagined.

So with my house rule, their Class ability of Combat Dominance will be able to be used in every single encounter, because the HD of their opponents no longer matters, and they get to be the combat machine I like to envision them as.

Are you saying you make sure that something causes disease in every encounter your Paladin is in? Because we sure don't play that way. We've never had the expectation that "each of their Class abilities should have the potential of being used in any encounter". Quite the opposite actually. We've played with the expectation that the more powerful an ability is, the less frequently it should come into play. I guess I never really thought of it like that. I suppose if you expect every power or ability to be relevant in every encounter, the Fighter certainly might seem underwhelming. But if you don't think about it that way they're honestly pretty awesome. Their basic bonus advantage and multiple attacks basically mean that creative players have a better chance at pretty much every single thing they do in combat. Everything. That's pretty awesome. Almost over powered in practice in my games. And once players figure that out, they're trying all sorts of crazy attacks because they have a better chance at succeeding.

The potential that Disease can become "in play" is there with every encounter. Its just up to CK's as to whether or not it will. AQs for the fighter, they are a fighter, and their ability to fight should come into play, potentially, in every single encounter, regardless of monster HD used. Personally I don't get why people are so against making the fighter be more of a fighter. No wonder why people complain about Mages being over powered, people don't even want to let a fighter be a fighter.

mbeacom wrote:

Treebore wrote:

mbeacom wrote:

Treebore wrote:I think it also has to do with how we run our games. I find it pretty much a complete waste of time to use 1 HD creatures when the group starts to get to about 5th level. Right after the level fighters even begin to pick up Combat Dominance. I am far more likely to use creatures with 2 or more HD. So in my games Fighters will rarely ever even get to use Combat Dominance. So a totally wasted ability in my games. Because I think each of their Class abilities should have the potential of being used in any encounter, just like the abilities of every other class do. Plus I have always had a thing for pictures of fighters wading into large numbers of enemies and cutting them all down as they try to cut you down. My current House Rule, which I call "Mass Combat Dominance" not only makes it useful, period, while at great risk to the Fighter, but also allows them to do precisely what I imagined.

So with my house rule, their Class ability of Combat Dominance will be able to be used in every single encounter, because the HD of their opponents no longer matters, and they get to be the combat machine I like to envision them as.

Are you saying you make sure that something causes disease in every encounter your Paladin is in? Because we sure don't play that way. We've never had the expectation that "each of their Class abilities should have the potential of being used in any encounter". Quite the opposite actually. We've played with the expectation that the more powerful an ability is, the less frequently it should come into play. I guess I never really thought of it like that. I suppose if you expect every power or ability to be relevant in every encounter, the Fighter certainly might seem underwhelming. But if you don't think about it that way they're honestly pretty awesome. Their basic bonus advantage and multiple attacks basically mean that creative players have a better chance at pretty much every single thing they do in combat. Everything. That's pretty awesome. Almost over powered in practice in my games. And once players figure that out, they're trying all sorts of crazy attacks because they have a better chance at succeeding.

The potential that Disease can become "in play" is there with every encounter. Its just up to CK's as to whether or not it will. AQs for the fighter, they are a fighter, and their ability to fight should come into play, potentially, in every single encounter, regardless of monster HD used. Personally I don't get why people are so against making the fighter be more of a fighter. No wonder why people complain about Mages being over powered, people don't even want to let a fighter be a fighter.

But this is true of enemy hit dice as well. I actually think changing the fighter makes it less of a fighter, not more. But I admit, it's subjective. The point I'm making is that its easier to add stuff if you find the Fighter boring and it's basic flexibility is part of what makes it so great. To change that would make it less like what I want a Fighter to be. I don't think the Fighter should an all singing all dancing class. I think he should be better at combat effectiveness through a better hit progression along with some cool abilities to combat mooks plus more attacks as they attain higher levels. Also, they should have almost no limits on their actions. I think something like a Paladin or Knight should get some other things to make them more specific but that should be combined with limits to what they can do as is the case. This just makes sense to me. But I get that some people don't like simple flexibility. They want the game to tell them more of what they can and can't do.Personally, I use a lot of 1HD monsters in my campaigns. The world doesn't really "level up" because the players do. Yes, they go places with higher level threats, but the lower level ones don't disappear and they're frequently in the way, on the way to the higher level ones. Then again, I rarely use disease or many undead in my games so perhaps Paladins would seem boring in my games and need some sprucing up.