Troll Lord Games

I recently purchased the Player's Handbook and Monsters and Treasure and am preparing to run my first game. I've played D&D for years and like many others it seems, I was dissapointed in 3.5 and subsequently found C&C.

I love this system and can't wait to run it. I feel like I have a good grasp of the rules after only reviewing the books a few times. One thing I noticed today sort of threw me off and I'm looking for some direction...

In the Example of Play, I notice that Suryc and Bjorn are not adding their class level to the Wisdom check to determine if they are surprised. My understanding so far was that you add the level on anything other than a different class's ability (like a Fighter trying to pick someone's pocket, etc...). I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone could help me understand when the class level is added to a check. Thanks!

Rusty

I think that is because the check can falll into another classes territory. So the CK is going to have to make that call.

Most of the time your covered. ITs within a classes territroy if its a listed class ability if its in their class description. Some CK's have added stuff that they get for racial bonuses to allow for the class levels to be added. Plus you add class levels to their saves and any physical or mental action (such as figuring out a clue or lifting a heavy tree) you haved them roll for.

Personnally for greater clarification, you may want to use 3E stuff. Like class skill lists, etc....

Avoiding surprise is not an ability for any class or race. Several races, such as half-orcs and those with enhanced senses, are better than others at such things, but no class has an "avoid surprise" ability. It is sort of assumed as such though for those with Wisdom Prime, meaning Rangers and Clerics. Of those, I would only allow a Ranger to add level. The abovementioned races would get their standard bonus (half-orc is not listed as having a bonus, but based on the scent ability from M&T, I'd give a +3.) In cases where the enhanced senses are useless, or "overwhelmed" the bonus would not apply, of course.

Class level is added to any, and all, checks for relevant class ability. But, as stated before, "avoid surprise" is not such an ability....

You know, I like that, because it keeps surprise a "dangerous" thing. I would have to give the Ranger, thief, and assassin, basically anyone with the ability to move silent/unseen a level bonus, though. But everyone else should stay relatively easy to surprise.

I give it to them... like a Saving Throw, I feel that adding your character level important. As the adventurers get more 'seasoned' they aren't likely to be as surprised the more they become 'hardened'.

But once again, CK's discretion -- which is one of the beautiful things about the game!

Welcome to the Crusade!

Moriarty the Red
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This is one area where I don't like using the SIEGE engine, because it doesn't model surprise like I want it to work (I especially didn't like how using a Wisdom check made the cleric one of the best ambush detectors in the game). I replaced the Wisdom check with a class and race dependent (level and attributes play no role) surprise check using a d100. It's basically the old AD&D surprise system, but converted to use percentages.

Thanks for all the feedback! I thought I had a good grasp on the rules, but seeing that threw me. I was comparing it to the example in the book of the fighter trying to push over a statue (not a class ability, but he added his class level to the roll). So, I searched everywhere in the book and the only reference I could find to NOT adding the class level was when attempting a different class's specific abilities. I appreciate all the guidance on this!

I think as long as you're consistent about it, your players won't mind. In my case, depending on the location (outdoors, dungeon) I let different players make a roll, some players don't get a roll depending on what they are doing at the time.

For example, in the outdoors, elves and halflings etc. tend to get an advantage. In a dungeon, dwarves & orcs etc. get the advantage...

Usually the humans get the short end of the stick...

To summarize, I do use levels for all players but give a significant bonus for races.
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Since 3e tends to use Wis for 3eDND skills like Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive, then I would use Wisdom. Since these skills are class skills for Rogues and Assassins and Rangers, they would add their levels. Clerics could do it if they wanted to Sense Motive, or something similar.

I find referencing the 3e skill list and class skills useful when thinking about this kind of thing.

Skylark wrote:
I find referencing the 3e skill list and class skills useful when thinking about this kind of thing.

Yes, I recommend this very thing many times. I may hate DMing 3E, but it does help "codify" certain things.

If you are going with a 3e style skill list, I suggest dumping Spot and replacing it with Surprise, a free skill for Rangers, Half Orcs, Elves, or whatever you like. Then, those with the surprise skill add it to their wis check, and everyone else (ie clerics, unless for some reason they take the skill) makes the check without.

BB

I want to avoid an actual skill list, it is just that if, from my 3e experience, some type of check seems part of a class experience, it gets the level bonus. I don't want to complicate what is a very simple game!
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I can't speak for skylark, but it isn't so much as I am using the 3E skill system, I just use it to further clarify what skills the classes can add their level to when making a check.

Now I have rules for actually writing down and choosing skills, but only the Druid/Runemark player has found such detail needed. The others are fine with just generally winging it. So am I. So it works.

Plus I have seen several suggest to combine spot, listen, sense motive, and search into a "perception" check, or some similiar name. I have also seen a suggestion to combine hide and move silently into a "stealthy" skill.

I do think Skylark is just using the 3E skill lists as an organization tool for his thoughts, not as a rules set. At least so far.

Just remember, if you're going to add level to surprise, keep in mind very high levels. It may be possible for characters to never be surprised (which may or may not be OK with you). Of course, if you're going to add level for PCs, then there should be a CL involved (the "opposing" HD/Level can be used). That way, a low level being will not surprise a high level being, but the opposite is also true, which may make more sense for some people if they want the game to scale with levels.

Personally, I don't use levels/HD with Surprise.

My 2 copper.

Skylark must have posted their response just as soon as I hit "add reply".

Lol!

To respond to phadeout, stealthy stuff is Dex-based, perceptive stuff is Wis-based for me. The CL will of course be opposed by the level of the other character who has appropriate race/class stealth abilities. Yeah, this means that high level rangers and rogues will pwn wizards and fighters when it comes to surprise, but that is part of the archetype, isn't it? That is why I think only giving 2 attacks per round to the fighter is so important. It makes the fighter what he is.
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