Troll Lord Games

So, Burning Hands is kind of a poor combat spell for a low level wizard doing 1d2+1 damage, it's lucky to kill a goblin. BUT it does say it will set flammables (like clothing and hair) on fire which could make it much more useful.

The problem is, I haven't found any rules for catching on fire. Am I just missing them? I have the CKG, but no luck there.

If there are no rules, how have you guys been handling it? I have some ideas of my own, but I wanted to see what others were doing with it.

Thanks.

P.S. I had this in the Keeper Advice forum, but it wasn't pointed out that you can't reply to threads in that forum. Weird. So here it is.

Judge how much stuff the individual has on that is truly flammable. In these CnC olden times, heavy fibers (cotton, linen, wool, etcc.) and leathers just did not burn well. A hairy creature might be scorched a bit more for double damage, but if all your hair caught fire it would not kill you. Most modern cloths only catch fire because they are basically plastic aka oil based. Try oil flasks first. Off hand I would not give more than double the spell's damage for most "cloths and hair" unless they were covered in something really flammable. I would give the secondary damage an appropriate save (either the item or the person wearing them not to burst into flames).

A bit off topic since I don't have any good rules for catching things on fire, don't let the minimal damage done by Burning Hands render the spell worthless.

As a CK, I always try to keep in mind that goblins and other low level enemies, and dumb ones in general, are not well versed in magic. When a magic-user pops a Burning Hands spell in combat, the villains start giving him a wide berth. It is not natural to have flames leap from one's hands. Never mind the fact that the magic-user may not have any more, the goblins don't know that. What else could this human do? Turn us into a newt?

I can't find rules for catching fire in any C&C book, or any D&D book for that matter ... I found this in Savage Worlds, seems reasonable:

Spreading: Anytime something flammable
is hit by fire, roll 1d6. On a 6, the target catches
fire. Very flammable targets, such as a scarecrow,
catch fire on a 4-6. Volatile targets, such as a
person soaked in gasoline, catch fire on anything
but a 1.

Damage-wise, I'm assuming it just means that something that has caught fire will continue to sustain the same damage each round until put out.

kreider204 wrote:I can't find rules for catching fire in any C&C book, or any D&D book for that matter ... I found this in Savage Worlds, seems reasonable:

Spreading: Anytime something flammable
is hit by fire, roll 1d6. On a 6, the target catches
fire. Very flammable targets, such as a scarecrow,
catch fire on a 4-6. Volatile targets, such as a
person soaked in gasoline, catch fire on anything
but a 1.

Damage-wise, I'm assuming it just means that something that has caught fire will continue to sustain the same damage each round until put out.

I had thought along similar lines, though I might just give them a save to avoid catching fire if they are wearing flammable stuff. If they catch fire they take 1d2 fire damage each round until they save (the fire goes out, runs out of fuel, is hastily patted out, etc) or spend a round doing a stop, drop and roll type of maneuver.

It ended up being less important in the immediate future than I thought it would, since neither of my players made wizards.

Doesn't the CKG include a section on equipment destruction SIEGE checks? There should be something on whether/when different items are damaged by fire exposure. The 1E DMG had a section on item saving throws as well.

Buttmonkey wrote:Doesn't the CKG include a section on equipment destruction SIEGE checks? There should be something on whether/when different items are damaged by fire exposure. The 1E DMG had a section on item saving throws as well.

And I might use those when players get burnt, but I'm not keeping track of a goblin's lice-infested leather armor.

I also like JediOre's comment about possibly scaring low-level creatures away with it. it's the kind of thinking that I've gotten away from in more structured games. There's nothing wrong with those types of games and it's definitely partly my fault, but all that structure makes you forget to improvise sometimes; it's easy to just gloss over anything not specifically covered.

Since Goblins have been the topic here and this is on the line you liked: Just from the Goblin description, they are vicious if highly over numbered or they think they got a great trap set.. but keep in mind Goblin Kings (5-7th lvl fighters) for tribes over 200 have or are controlled by a (wizard) shaman Goblin of equal level. I'm not saying 5-7th lvl shamans are not scary, but they are not King, 200 Goblin and 20 1st lvl fighter Goblin controlling scary if they are not culturally "feared".. so go for the flash. The psychological impact can be played into something much more than 1-2 base hp... have fun with it, play it up, Goblins will run or break, most "wild" creature do not "fight to the death".. if dinner is likely to hurt you or kill you, its not dinner, something else will be,, That basic rule, that most creatures do not wade in wishing to die goes a long way in many encounters. But if you want to allow bad guys to run when the going gets tough do not forget to give experience for the defeat. Which is wiser and more "amazing", killing 20 goblins with chain lightening or putting on an amazing light show followed by smoke and a burning hands spell, injuring one and making the 20 flee in terror (all with zero and 1st lvl spells)? Reward the smart and the "winner" if they did it well. Experience only for kills leads to thinking you were fearing being trapped within.

You could also look at it as a distraction. Like maybe gobbs that fail a save have been set on fire, and are at a minus to hit for x number of rounds, because they're tempering their desire to kill the adventurers with the fact that theyre currently on fire.

docdoom77 wrote:So, Burning Hands is kind of a poor combat spell for a low level wizard doing 1d2+1 damage, it's lucky to kill a goblin.

One point you have overlooked. It is an area effect spell. So, ALL within that area take the damage. Seems to be a defensive spell for a 1st level. If the monsters break through the fighter types...

Tactics. MU's learn about the subject or, perish at low level.

Arduin wrote:

docdoom77 wrote:So, Burning Hands is kind of a poor combat spell for a low level wizard doing 1d2+1 damage, it's lucky to kill a goblin.

One point you have overlooked. It is an area effect spell. So, ALL within that area take the damage. Seems to be a defensive spell for a 1st level. If the monsters break through the fighter types...

Tactics. MU's learn about the subject or, perish at low level.

No, I took that into consideration, but I'm fairly sure it's 10 feet wide by 5 foot long. In most circumstances, that will be able to hit 2 creatures at most. Better than one creature, yes, but not great.

For me, though, having require a save or catch on fire (assuming you're wearing clothes ;P) and it's potential intimidation factor have solved the problem.

On the subject, I like C&C, but I've never agreed with the classic D&D formula of incredibly weak wizards at low level, to balance the fact that they can be so powerful later. I'd prefer more balanced wizards throughout. It's not such a big deal though, since my group doesn't have one. ;P I ended up with a half-orc Barbarian (I love the C&C interpretation of this class; never liked rage) and a dwarf cleric. I backed them up with a Rogue NPC to give them some of the skills they are missing.

docdoom77 wrote: For me, though, having require a save or catch on fire (assuming you're wearing clothes ;P) and it's potential intimidation factor have solved the problem.

Yes and a GM that RP's monsters correctly. When I run monsters I run them with the Int they have. A goblin almost getting killed by a blast of fire is going to run away to live another day. Unless MAYBE while protecting its young. Part of the problem is GM's who think that all monsters are mindless, non-living golems of some type.

Arduin wrote:

docdoom77 wrote: For me, though, having require a save or catch on fire (assuming you're wearing clothes ;P) and it's potential intimidation factor have solved the problem.

Yes and a GM that RP's monsters correctly. When I run monsters I run them with the Int they have. A goblin almost getting killed by a blast of fire is going to run away to live another day. Unless MAYBE while protecting its young. Part of the problem is GM's who think that all monsters are mindless, non-living golems of some type.

Yeah. Video games and 4th edition D&D tend to enforce that kind of thinking. Really, it's been hard for me to GM a d20 game without falling into that trap lately. It's something I'm looking forward to rectifying in C&C. We had a short game yesterday, started A0. Only one random encounter with a hungry wolf, so not much opportunity to RP combat, but the barbarian did insist on skinning the wolf and collecting the meat, which he then traded to the tavern keeper for free wolf-stew later. ;P I know he wouldn't have bothered if we were playing 4th edition.

docdoom77 wrote:

Arduin wrote:

docdoom77 wrote: For me, though, having require a save or catch on fire (assuming you're wearing clothes ;P) and it's potential intimidation factor have solved the problem.

Yes and a GM that RP's monsters correctly. When I run monsters I run them with the Int they have. A goblin almost getting killed by a blast of fire is going to run away to live another day. Unless MAYBE while protecting its young. Part of the problem is GM's who think that all monsters are mindless, non-living golems of some type.

Yeah. Video games and 4th edition D&D tend to enforce that kind of thinking. Really, it's been hard for me to GM a d20 game without falling into that trap lately. It's something I'm looking forward to rectifying in C&C. We had a short game yesterday, started A0. Only one random encounter with a hungry wolf, so not much opportunity to RP combat, but the barbarian did insist on skinning the wolf and collecting the meat, which he then traded to the tavern keeper for free wolf-stew later. ;P I know he wouldn't have bothered if we were playing 4th edition.

Sounds like you're having fun already. Play on!

Some could argue that the spell is a little underpowered...but I think it's fine for C&C. It's a "+1/level," meaning that while low-ish, it'll have consistent damage output To me, that 7th level wizard tossing a 8-9 points of damage is like the fighter hitting 3, 4, or 5 enemies...all at the same time. For a 1st-level spell. Not too shabby...in my opinion, at least.

As for ruling about catching fire? That's easy - CK discretion. Sometimes it will, and sometimes it won't. If you need to have a mechanic, then just rule that if the dies roll is a "2" on the d2, then any flammable items ignite. Simple.