M&T errata thread for new printing

[Captain_K]

1) What are the ground rules for this "printing"? New adds? More pictures? Or just fixes?
2) What areas would you like to focus on? Examples of MI creation, check MI costs? Creature descriptions? Closeness to ADD?

In short, right now we are just telling you what we want or find.. direct us please.

Consider us your "junior editors" or loyal henchmen or zombie hoard as you see fit ;}

[Arduin]

1) What are the ground rules for this "printing"? New adds? More pictures? Or just fixes?
2) What areas would you like to focus on? Examples of MI creation, check MI costs? Creature descriptions? Closeness to ADD?

In short, right now we are just telling you what we want or find.. direct us please.

Consider us your "junior editors" or loyal henchmen or zombie hoard as you see fit ;}

From what the Trolls said about the PHB next printing, it is going to be fixes. So I would say fixing errors & omissions as a priority. Although swapping out known animal pics for missing "monster" pics would make for a nice incentive to repurchase. <Hint, hint>

[Captain_K]

1) Is the editor known?
2) Can we get some details?
3) On Arduin's picture thought: I have a friend who is (was) a pretty good pen and ink guy, might be willing to make some drawing.. contact me if the powers that be want them for specific monsters. See the "Crusaders #27" thread and the "CnC monster" thread "monster creation contest" for samples of his work.

[Captain_K]

Centaur p15 (print 80112): Should they not have dusk or twilight vision rather than Darkvision?

[Captain_K]

Chimera, p15, (print 80112): In a given round, claw, claw, triple bite, but should not the Gore alternate or be only an option when not biting? Possibly I'm reading the entry wrong, but it seems like 6 attacks per round. Gore would come from a charge? A sentence to explain might not hurt.
This is a creature that would help from an image.
In some cases the "dragon" is the hindquarters, the goat the body, but the tail is always serpent like or dragon like, many times with a "whipping or sharp tip" or even a live snakes head for a tail.. but in this version no dragon head.. just some "classic reference" stuff.
All that aside, a goat's bite, even a big goat, which is "bigger than a lion", seems pretty steep at 2d4 damage.

[Arduin]

1) Is the editor known?
2) Can we get some details?
3) On Arduin's picture thought: I have a friend who is (was) a pretty good pen and ink guy, might be willing to make some drawing.. contact me if the powers that be want them for specific monsters. See the "Crusaders #27" thread and the "CnC monster" thread "monster creation contest" for samples of his work.

See the intro post here viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13691 The same applies to the M&T basically.

Steve is the deciderer...

[Traveller]

...of all things, including who gets to edit the book. I have mentioned editing M&T in other threads, based upon my belief the two books should be treated as one large book for editing purposes. But it's not a foregone conclusion.

[Captain_K]

p 27 Dragonne: Flight speed < running makes no sense to me (even if it was that way in the original MM). Should "short distances of flight" be detailed aka (<200' or 1-3 turns) seems easy enough.
p28 Drider: Seems Drow Elf, but easy enough to specify Drow Elf instead of just Elf.
p29 Giant Eagle: Ground movement of 20 seems too fast for any flighted bird of prey on the ground, even one that big. More like 5 or 10 tops.
p34 Fleshcrawler: Constriction has no definition at all and is not described in any of the text.
p36 Gargoyle: Gore? 4th attack? In place of bite? Biting and goring in the same round seem tricky.

[Captain_K]

From a previous post:
p37 Ghast: Lovely little note at the end under "Ghoul Fever" (which Ghouls cannot cause, only Ghasts, so miss named?) where there is a chance your PC will retain "much" of its memory, INT and 30-80% of its exp/levels, but what is missing is will and alignment.. is it just assumed you must be a Chaotic Evil (CE) Ghast. Might be wise to state clearly if that is the "hard rule". If you retain your alignment or only shift toward CE alignment this makes for some fun fantasy.

Aside: A nice nod to P. C .Hodgell's Character Ashe who is a "haunt" singer (aka Ghast Bard in CnC terms) who also maintained her "self" (alignment) despite becoming an undead. (Start with P.C. Hodgell's first book "God Stalk" (old copies about on places like ABEBooks.com) and you will love working your way to Honor's Paradox - a great series ripe for CnC).

[Arduin]

ABOLETH & COUATL both have "psionics" listed. Needs to be changed to "Spell like abilities"

[Arduin]

As two creatures have it listed, Blindsight description needs to be placed on page 4/5 with all the other "Vision" definitions.

[Captain_K]

I will continue my search, monster by monster in the M&T, but are we also to look at the second book Classic Monsters?
When looking at the ADD MM compared to the M&T and CM books I see many classic monsters missing.. is there a list of all omitted creatures? (Ex Aerial Servant, Beetles, Beholder, Brownie, Displacer Beast, Djinni.. plus a host of those like Barracuda, Beaver, Brain Mole, Cerebral Parasite, etc. that may be "less classic") Is there a list, with cross reference, to those with changed names or under a new sub-group like Black Pudding being under Ooze. Such a common listing would be great, edited and kept up by players as needed, possibly even links to good attempts at those creatures.

[kreider204]

Like this?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Nf1f ... sp=sharing



Some are to close approximations (e.g., the prismal eye is the C&C version of the D&D beholder, more or less), so you may not see the exact names, but it should direct you to something workable.

[Arduin]

I will continue my search, monster by monster in the M&T, but are we also to look at the second book Classic Monsters?

Nope.

[Captain_K]

Kreider, Thanks for the link. That excel works great, I'm going to make it more interactive and a bit color coded, not sure how to share when done, but will do.

Quick thoughts:
p 49 Horse. With a few short notes, &/or another column or two, this could (should because you can buy them in the PH and notes on them also exist in the CKG) be expanded to include:
a) heavy draft horse (could be as simple as "Use heavy war horse without the ability to fight or bite and 10' less movement rate but 1.07x the hauling capacity."),
b) donkeys/borrow/ponies (Shetland) and
c) mules.

p 77 Sprite. Add Brownie and Leprechaun? Brownie is noted as a summon-able familiar, yet Pixie is detailed in the spell description while it is already in the Sprite section (alternate fix to PH6 is describe the Brownie and the leprechaun in the spell and not the Sprite). These exist in "Wilderness" creatures, could be a simple copy and add in?

[Arduin]

be expanded to include:
a) heavy draft horse (could be as simple as "Use heavy war horse without the ability to fight or bite and 10' less movement rate but 1.07x the hauling capacity."),

Two totally different animals. "Urban legends" aside.

[AGNKim]

I will continue my search, monster by monster in the M&T, but are we also to look at the second book Classic Monsters?
When looking at the ADD MM compared to the M&T and CM books I see many classic monsters missing.. is there a list of all omitted creatures? (Ex Aerial Servant, Beetles, Beholder, Brownie, Displacer Beast, Djinni.. plus a host of those like Barracuda, Beaver, Brain Mole, Cerebral Parasite, etc. that may be "less classic")

Some of those cannot be reproduced, WotC owns them and will not allow anyone else to reproduce them. Beholder, displacer beast, gith-people, slaad, mind flayer... Some of the others I didn't do because I just see them as kind of... weak? Does anyone need a beaver statted out (that sounds much worse than it should)? Same with giant or dire creatures, I personally don't like them. My intent with Classic Monsters was to grab some of those old monsters from the Fiend Folio and MM2 and put them back into the game. And, like you alluded to, the barracuda just isn't that classic.

[Captain_K]

Is there a short listing of those we are "not to post" or cannot be used again due to copy write by WotC?

Horse as a draft animal or war horse are "the same animal", I assume you do not mean it literally, their stats will change, their temperament and training vary, but they both could be together on the same page, if they are so different, then two write up would be nice. Everywhere we go these creatures are as numerous as any creature, oxen, mules, donkeys, horses... they are the trucks and cars of their day one small write up would be nice, some place.. if anyone has them, please place them in the CnC Monster section? Every Asian Monk or English Perish Holy man needs water buffalo or borrow to ride about on or at least bicker with, and what company of soldiers doesn't need at least one mule to carry all the heavy gear!

[Traveller]

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Legal.rtf is the official document. But http://www.d20srd.org/faq.htm spells it out in plain language.

[Captain_K]

With druids casting animal friendship, having a few of the key small to medium animals about and "correct" for the job would be nice. Summon Familiar in the PH lays those creatures out pretty well.

Ex: Page 16 M&T has the Badger (or African Ratel of the "Honey Badger" famed video). This creature although pretty true to the original MM is darn powerful for a 1d10 creature. Badger's little legs can do about 18 mph for very short bursts and human run around 20 mph so a speed of 30 for short bursts with 20 typical would be better. Their AC I assume adjusts for speed and size but a 16 is pretty tough. Their claws are better than knives and their bite is as good as a dagger, plus they have a +4 to hit (5HD creature). Pretty darn impressive.. the Gnomish Druid in our group has one as a friend and it can whoop on any one of our 1st lvl PC fighters on a bad day. Tone this one down a bit or live with it.. I'll be looking into more such critters next.

[Captain_K]

The original badger in MM move would have been 20 with a burrow of 10, but I would suggest 5 for borrow. Damage was d2 for claw and d3 for bite. They did not get a +4 to hit. By adding a note you could create the 'giant' badge (M size) at 3HD and d3/d3/d6 damage. Then a second sentence would allow a Wolverine to be the same as the giant badger and exchange the tunnel for +2 to 4 to hit.

[tylermo]

Kim, perhaps it's time to cover these critters in a future TLG release...Tome of the Mundane!

[Arduin]

Just to bump this thread as it seems that the PHB errata thread is done and the Trolls have made the corrections therein.

Post your M&T stuff as it is probably (purely my guess) the next book to be worked on for corrections.

[Captain_K]

Per some posting advice from the more experienced.. supporting images to the below should appear in the next three posts:
Theme: Movement of creatures
p 11 Baboon move of 24.. seems like base 5 or 10 are more typical, so 25? MM had what would be 30.
p 13 Blink Dog again, 24 to 25? MM had 30 (aside dogs and coyote have moves of 40 and MM had 30 or 38 for war or wild dogs as a ref.
p 20 dragons, just a thought, should move in some or all terrains change with age/size? Seems a mature full sized dragon should be much faster than a 5' long hatchling.... does flight occur after some age?
p 28 dwarf (similarly hobbit and gnome) should or could they be 25 move and size Medium (for the dwarf only)? Cross over with PH issues and CKG size (height and weight charts) - this thought is plotted below..
p36 Gargoyle 45' move seems fast for a stone creature, flight OK, MM was 23 move
Titan move of 90 seems pretty fleet, MM would be 53 and based on height plots more like 60 or 70

[Captain_K]

Move 1 attachment is from humanoid bi-pedal creatures, giants and PC races mostly. First chart is including all with PC class races weighting low end without all monster humanoids in there too, but that would weight to 30 and 20.

[Captain_K]

Move 2 is with the two outlier data points, Titan and Dwarf removed, this is visual inspection, not strict data regression.

[Captain_K]

Move3 is with Titan and all short PC races removed. This pulls the data to a simple and well fitting plot of height to move. Non-linear plots would either drive the short races to wanting to be faster or the Titan slower, but not both.

[Captain_K]

So all that way too geeky plotting aside (and please do not over react to this, its just data to look at or ignore because it is not your style or negative to fantasy), it might be helpful plotting for new races/monster move based on height.. it does point that it would not be "against" physics to have smaller races move at 25 to 30 and it does support that Titan, if not "magical", might be a bit too quick.
Purely by the number, something refined like this might be reasonable (if anyone cares or wants this kind of detail):
Move of 20 would be < 3'9"
25 move would be 3'9" to 4'8"
30 would be 4'9" to 6'9"
35 move would be 6'10" to 9'9"
40 move would be 9'10" to about 15' tall

Similarly a simple chart in MT that tables or plots mass (weight) vs size might be helpful.
To me focusing on PC races:
Small is < 89#
Medium is 90-249#
Large is > 250#
Not sure if going bigger is needed or smaller for "tiny" creatures aka familiars.

[Treebore]

I am not big on being precise about movement, and am happy "roughing it" most of the time, but when precision is needed, I do like your charts.

[Traveller]

Cap,

The changes to monster movement you're proposing likely will not be adopted. It would change the nature of both the creatures and the game too much.