Troll Lord Games

I have gnome illusionist (4th level) who's trying to use alter self to transform into a Stone Giant with a 7d6 weapon (per M&T stats). Is this even doable? That's taller than allowed for per change self, I believe. Help....

Yeah, not doable.

Reason being the character change only alter their height IAW the Change Self spell, and that is only by 1 foot either way. No where near to the size of a Stone Giant.

Later, the 4-foot Gnome illusionist (with advice from another player) wanted to alter self into an Annis Hag. Any thoughts?

Are they just flipping through monster books at the table?

In C&C, they are both of type Humanoid, so that part is OK.
Unfortunately the C&C spell doesn't have the limitation the d20 spell does:

"The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself."

So that's your call, but what level of ability do other 2nd level spells convey? Is it in the same ballpark?

However, an annis hag is definitely more than a foot taller than a gnome. I don't think that saying "same type" eliminates the restrictions from change self.

Also look at the d20srd for specific meanings for extraordinary and supernatural abilities, which C&C leaves out. If you did allow a 4' tall annis hag, I guess she'd get rend and improved grab but not spell like abilities or spell resistance.

I don't think the rules will help you here, they've lost too much in translation; this is something where you need to make a call.

tylermo wrote:Later, the 4-foot Gnome illusionist (with advice from another player) wanted to alter self into an Annis Hag. Any thoughts?

Nope. An Annis appears as an OVERGROWN human female. That's going to be well over 5' tall.

Another suggestion, if they have not personally ran into, fought, and killed, or in some other way spent time studying a creatures body, no one can turn into it. "Hearing" about something, or reading about it in a book, with crappy inaccurate illustrations, or seeing it for a few seconds to a minute or two, is not good enough.

Treebore wrote:Another suggestion, if they have not personally ran into, fought, and killed, or in some other way spent time studying a creatures body, no one can turn into it. "Hearing" about something, or reading about it in a book, with crappy inaccurate illustrations, or seeing it for a few seconds to a minute or two, is not good enough.

+1 on that!

Yeah, I've ran my games based on what Tree said, and have for many years. No shape changes, illusions, or the like if the character has never had any encounters with a creature. Even animal companions in 3.x...no druids starting with a raptor animal companion in a typical setting. Even if they have experience with certain creatures, make sure they follow the parameters of the spell in question.

I'm not busting your chops tylermo, but it sounds like your players are looking to maximize potential in every possible way. And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's done within the confines of the rules!

According to the spell description in my book (PH p.70) you can't even change your race! A gnome can only appear to be a different sort of gnome which seems rather odd.

TensersFloatingDisk wrote:According to the spell description in my book (PH p.70) you can't even change your race! A gnome can only appear to be a different sort of gnome which seems rather odd.

Change Self says you can't change your race.
Alter Self says "as with Change Self, the caster can assume the form of a creature of the same type as the caster's form."

For that to make any sense and actually be better, I'd probably be liberal with "same type" and say that means human or demi-human, or maybe even humanoid, which is the "type" of a gnome in M&T, and ignore the "as with Change Self" part in that context.
If you want more, you need Polymorph Self.

Yes, if Alter Self followed Change Self to the extent of not being able to change race, it would not be necessary to state that extraordinary attacks and abilities are gained since the caster couldn't be gaining anything (s)he didn't alread have. Same type as form presumably means turning into an Orc or a Troglodyte is fine but turning into a pony or a gelatinous cube isn't. Not changing race for CS seems odd, as is the wording; I could see it leading to rule-bending workarounds whereby someone says they're changing into a slightly built, pointy-eared human with angular features but not an elf, or turning into a small-nosed, hairy-footed gnome but not a halfling...