Invisibility

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:07 am

Is this spell abused in your games because of its permanent duration? It sounds incredibly potent to me for a 2nd level spell.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:18 am

Its only permanent until they attack. It can be abused to be a pain in the butt, but I rarely have such players. Plus I like it being available so it can be used to allow the cleric to heal PC's and similiar character saving situations.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:53 am

Because it is permanent, it also has detriments... like, being in the way of an attack because your allies can't see you, or dying from a gas trap and being left behind. There are also communication problems.

A CK must play up and abuse the duration to make the spell what it is supposed to be... a good recon/surprise spell.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:27 pm

Metathiax wrote:
Is this spell abused in your games because of its permanent duration? It sounds incredibly potent to me for a 2nd level spell.

Hehe, if you have an illusionist, you'll be happy when he gets to choose the level 4 spell Improved invisibility!
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Moorcrys · Post by **Moorcrys** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:44 pm

It reminds me of my first edition days, really.

Just make sure no one gets their greedy hands on a ring of invisibility or it's unbearable.
You might want to implement the high-hit die/level, high intelligence chance to detect invisible things from 1st Edition if it's really bugging you.
[edit] If you have it check out the old DMG entry on invisibility (a good read regardless for this issue) pages 59-60.
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Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:09 pm

The Improved Invisibility spell doesn't bother me one bit since it has a 1 tn + 1 rd/lvl duration and it's also a 4th level spell. Powerful spell effects are to be expected from level 7+ casters. Can Invisibility be cast on objects as well?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:22 pm

Metathiax wrote:
The Improved Invisibility spell doesn't bother me one bit since it has a 1 tn + 1 rd/lvl duration and it's also a 4th level spell. Powerful spell effects are to be expected from level 7+ casters. Can Invisibility be cast on objects as well?

Even though the range is touch the spell description so overwhelmingly talks about the target being a person I would say it can't do objects by themselves, it would have to be held or picked up by an invisible living being.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:46 am

It has to be castable on objects or enchanted rings of the like would not exist. Unless all rings of invisibility are of the superior kind... which is far more powerful than one might think.

Oh, and yeah, a ring of invis can be naughty. My ranger had one. The CK stole it from me.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:09 am

Invisibility can be an interesting and nasty spell as it is... and I don't have a problem since it also has it's own check and balances (which have already been mentioned). It is not the only spell which can be deemed powerful. Sleep and Sound Burst and FANTASTIC and DEADLY 1st level spells.

Personally I love it this way... considering that the opponents to the party may be similarly equipped!

Deadly indeed!

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Gnostic Gnoll · Post by **Gnostic Gnoll** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:16 pm

Metathiax wrote:
The Improved Invisibility spell doesn't bother me one bit since it has a 1 tn + 1 rd/lvl duration and it's also a 4th level spell. Powerful spell effects are to be expected from level 7+ casters. Can Invisibility be cast on objects as well?

Your thoughts have led me to some of my own. I just recently got C&C and haven't had a chance to play yet, but here are my thoughts on the matter, which might suit you or help you come up with a version that works better for you.

Just throw out Invisibility and Invisibility Sphere. Improved Invisibility is overall a more consistent spell. It doesn't disappear (how... ironic) based on a totally arbitrary condition such as inflicting damage. It never did sit well with me that attacking will make it fall, but not aiding your allies, or opening doors or smashing objects. I understand the... mechanical reason behind that purpose, but it makes a lot more sense if they're just gotten rid of altogether.

This also addresses another problem that a friend of mine and I often lamented while playing 3rd Edition D&D. Essentially, by the time a wizard achieved 3rd-level spells, s/he had rendered all skills effectively useless. Jump meant you might as well not take ranks, Knock eliminates the need for Open Lock, Spider Climb kills climbing, Comprehend Languages yadda yadda, and so on.

I suspect there is a rather similar problem in C&C, even if it isn't quite as damning to the rules set (since you aren't buying skill ranks). Leaving Improved Invisibility but nixing the other two, however, essentially relegates the state of magical invisibility to a combat application and lets the rogue shine in the fields s/he is supposed to. And you could therefore probably knock Imp. Invisibility down to a 3rd-level illusionist spell.

So I speculate, anyway. Haven't tested it in play at this point.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:26 pm

I don't know, invisibility and imp. inv. didn't seem to break AD&D, or did it? I don't remember it breaking the games I DM'ed or played in. It's scary how so faded my memories of AD&D are after 3e.

Vicar In A Tutu · Post by **Vicar In A Tutu** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:57 pm

In my campaign, invisibility has a duration of 1 minute per level. When cast by an illusionist however, the spell has a duration of permanent (as described in the C&C PHB). I wanted to give the illusionist a bit more firepower and give it something that radically makes it different from the wizard class (in addition to a different spell list). Being invisible for most of the time fits the bill.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:19 pm

I find sleep a lot more of a headache to deal with than Invisibility.

Plus I allow invisibility to be permanent as long as concentration is maintained. So anytime they want to perform some action they must make a TN check of base 12 (this is a class ability) plus a CL of either the HD of the creature being attacked or a CL I assign for non-combat actions.

I do like a couple of the ideas presented here, so I may be altering things even further.

I also like how my wife/kids are refusing to use haste because of automatically aging one year and losing a HP permanently on a failed save.

I told them we could go back to how it was in 2E (using the Optional rulebook on spells version) and they could die instead.

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:47 pm

I did alter Sleep (CHA save negates) and Sound Burst (CON save for half damage) though. I did not like the prospect of having to metagame as a DM so that I didn't annihilate my party. These spells are still pretty powerful in their nerfed form...
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:50 am

It lasts until he attacks, or ends the spell. So it could last weeks.

Yes, SR only comes into play if trying to turn an unwilling target invisible.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:11 pm

Invis is powerful. Imagine running around the rest of your life invis'd!

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Name Level · Post by **Name Level** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:41 pm

It does seem quite powerful. That's why my mage just hit level three, and Invis. was the first 2nd level spell I took.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:31 pm

ITs powerful, but not in a game breaking way. As soon as they "attack" they become visible. So define "attack" as any "dangerous action" and it becomes a lot less powerful, but maintains coolness.
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Luther · Post by **Luther** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:52 pm

Treebore wrote:
ITs powerful, but not in a game breaking way. As soon as they "attack" they become visible. So define "attack" as any "dangerous action" and it becomes a lot less powerful, but maintains coolness.

Wow. I didn't realize there was no expiration time for Invisibility. While it's not a game breaker in the combat sense, it certainly makes a 3rd level wizard much better at scouting and spying than the party rogue/thief. On the oher hand, it won't save him from a pit trap or animals with any sort of exceptional sense.

I just checked and that spell has been 'permanent' since the Moldvay days. For over 25 years, the people I've played with just sort of assumed it ended after an ecounter! Bizarre that I never noticed this for all that time.

If it's a problem for your game, I'd give it a duration of 'however long is dramatically appropriate' just to keep the players honest. Let them keep it up as long as they want, but let them know that if they don't drop it at some point, you can drop it at any point that seems best...

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:12 pm

Just think about that poor invisible wizard after he falls into the pit trap. No one could find him, he didn't attack, so he's still invisible. If he is unconscious, he is toast.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:46 pm

Aladar wrote:
Just think about that poor invisible wizard after he falls into the pit trap. No one could find him, he didn't attack, so he's still invisible. If he is unconscious, he is toast.

Ssssh! We don't want the wizard players to think about such things until its too late!
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Hengist · Post by **Hengist** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:43 pm

Luther - I (when I've run MU in the past) prefer to put the Invis ON the Rogue, pat'em on the back, and let'em "do that thing". {Then the NEXT day tell I can't do it again becauase I've got a Mirror Images for me and an Attribute Enhancer for the fighter types.....}

Hengist · Post by **Hengist** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:46 pm

In "Ye Olde Rulez", Invis duration was also at the option of the caster. After I did an Invis on the "scout", I would mention the them that I could end it at my discretion. Always fun. Kinda sad to see that missing from the new rules {ahem - suggestions}.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:11 pm

In the (relatively) few times I've played a Magic User/Wizard/Mage I made ceratin, if possible, to get invisibility as soon as possible. I'll go out on a limb to say it's the best utility spell from levels 1-3.

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