SRD for Castles and Crusades

[alcyone]

Doesn't matter much, does it? I don't know if 3.5 sales went up or down when they made their SRD available, or when the popular web sites came up that let you browse them in hypertext. I don't know if Swords and Wizardry's sales went up or down when they put their hypertext SRD up. I just don't know where to find that data. I suppose they know. They didn't know what would happen until they tried it. It would be nice if Troll Lord Games tried it. I think the original poster would really like to play this game and is doing it despite it being easier to go to Swords and Wizardry. It's a fine game too, who could blame him.

I have multiple copies of the player handbooks, so do my players, but I play with a pretty small group of people I know in person or met online. I am not doing much to advance the hobby. Someone who is willing to run online games for acquaintances and strangers is spreading the game and I make no claim that I know how it would pan out to accommodate that, but my gut feeling is it would be helpful.

I don't think it's too fair to beat up the trolls about it (unless you've talked to them about it and they really are being boneheads, I don't know); they've kept this thing afloat through good and bad and are delivering successful products and kickstarters, maybe they know what they are doing. Maybe it's on the agenda and they aren't there yet. Maybe it's a legal hassle. Or maybe, Arduin, they are doing that market research that you are bugging Treebore about. Who knows unless they say.

Finally, when someone comes to these forums and wants to play this game, frankly we should give them the benefit of the doubt and make them feel welcome. Dismissing legitimate criticism as whining isn't going to endear the game to anyone. Perhaps unbelievably, I mostly play C&C these days because of people I met on these forums, and the fact that most of the time the conversations here are inclusive, good-natured, and helpful. Mechanically, it's a swell game, no doubt, but I like D&D, Swords and Wizardry, and Adventures Dark and Deep for example also. I've bought them all, but not everyone is that crazy; maybe we'd have more people to play with, more presence at cons, more word-of-mouth if we didn't discourage those who are going to choose one game from choosing C&C.

[MrGrim]

@Anduin...

While I don't have sales figures I think it extraordinary that someone would find my position on this extraordinary

For instance, there is a complete SRD for Pathfinder here http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

The fact that Pathfinder is the #1 selling RPG should give one pause in saying that free rules doesn't probably, in fact, help sales. But it's not just Pathfinder...

Swords and Sorcery full SRD
http://www.d20swsrd.com/

They just raised $104,116 as of this post in their latest kickstarter campaign (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fr ... ord-of-air)

Labyrinth Lord (not sure how this one is doing but it seems to have quite a following)
http://grandwiki.wikidot.com/ll

Mutants and Masterminds
http://www.d20herosrd.com/

Traveller
http://www.traveller-srd.com/

The last two are fairly big titles with healthy followings...

I suggest from the information at hand that the efforts and apparent successes of a number of publishers is indicative of a trend in how people are gaming and making purchasing decisions these days. I'm not so naive that I believe success is all about "free rules" but it is clearly a part of the broader marketing strategies of these other companies...and their overall strategies appear to be working.

Finally, I'm not coming on here to whine and throw mud at the Trolls. Im saying these things because I happen to believe they have the best edition of the game that has yet been published (bar some of the editing issues). I do think there is an awareness problem though in regards to how the market is shifting. The Trolls have been successful thus far and enthusiastic kudos to them for this but I believe there are numerous signs in the market to suggest things are starting to shift. In business catching these shifts is critical as they sling shot your momentum and God forbid your competition gets it and you don't!

New media marketing is my professional background so I'm speaking with a little more dogmatism here than I might on other subjects...just due to experience with online marketing, branding, and sales. Having said all of this...if the Trolls are reading, they know what their sales look like and hopefully what is trending with other publishers (the competition). They're either laughing at me or thinking "hmmmmm?" and stroking their beards

[Treebore]

They're either laughing at me or thinking "hmmmmm?" and stroking their beards

Steve shaves, only Davis has a beard.

[Arduin]

@Anduin...

While I don't have sales figures I think it extraordinary that someone would find my position on this extraordinary

For instance, there is a complete SRD for Pathfinder here http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

The fact that Pathfinder is the #1 selling RPG should give one pause in saying that free rules doesn't probably, in fact, help sales. But it's not just Pathfinder...

PF took 1st place when Wizards committed suicide with their RPG strat. PF used Wizardss D&D SRD to snatch the business. PF took 1st place WITHOUT having an SRD for their own game. Using D&D's SRD they "inherited" most of Wizards RPG customers. You have made no direct connection there.

Swords and Sorcery full SRD
http://www.d20swsrd.com/

They just raised $104,116 as of this post in their latest kickstarter campaign (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fr ... ord-of-air)

Raising $ from KS is not relevant. Show me their sales figures based on SRD driving bus. vs. PRIOR to SRD.

All I'm asking for is what I asked for a couple posts ago. If you got it, show it. So far, you don't have it. You haven't shown causation. If you have ever run a sizable enterprise you realize how critical that is to making those types of decisions.

Playing loosie goosie with causation vs correlation means that I could point to WotC LOSING its #1 RPG position AFTER creating and posting and SRD.

See how that works? Cum hoc ergo propter hoc

[Traveller]

The Mutants & Masterminds SRD uses different names and different mechanics for the two items in the game that are product identity. That SRD is a rare exception to the norm, which is to omit portions of the game that allow you to play it, e.g. character generation. The express purpose of a SRD is to let people create content for the game, not play it for free.

This back and forth about sales figures is pointless. A C&C SRD will not necessarily improve sales, but it will make it easier to create content. That is where the SRD's value is, but the Trolls don't necessarily see it that way.

[Arduin]

... That SRD is a rare exception to the norm, which is to omit portions of the game that allow you to play it, e.g. character generation. The express purpose of a SRD is to let people create content for the game, not play it for free.

This back and forth about sales figures is pointless. A C&C SRD will not necessarily improve sales, but it will make it easier to create content. That is where the SRD's value is, but the Trolls don't necessarily see it that way.

Agreed. SRD's function best when designed to be used to create 3rd party content to flank the game itself. Mongoose's Trav SRD omits the detailed Char Gen rules. It isn't aimed at players who don't want to purchase the Char Gen rules but at game content creators.

[MrGrim]

You know...some data that was shared to me through some colleagues in my field suggest the sales of the other "popular" retro clones and indy games may actually be abysmal compared to where I thought they may have been. If what I am looking at is true, forget my business case for the marking strategies of other indy publishers...I'm not seeing anything that I'd call a "success" from a business standpoint, at least when compared with the numbers with which I'm used to working.

[Arduin]

Here's what is interesting. It was posited that a GM couldn't give enough data legally for a player without a PHB to create and play an intro character and thus had to drop playing C&C for something that gave the players enough free content so they didn't have to pay. Here is the OGL statement from the PHB

DESIGNATION OF OPEN GAME CONTENT: The following is designated Open Game Content pursuant
to the OGL v1.0a: all text appearing in the following sections and subsections, listed by page number - page 5, “Dice”; page 7-8, “The Six Attributes”, “Generating Attribute Scores”, “Attribute Modifiers”, and the attribute modifier table; page 9, “Class Description Terminology”; pages 11 to 32, the “Abilities” subsection of each class, the summary of class features (prime attribute, hit dice, alignment, weapon and armor allowed, and abilities), and the class tables showing HD, BtH, and EPP per level; page 33, the description of languages, size, movement, typical classes, attribute modifiers, class modifiers; page 34-40, the “Abilities” subsection of each race; pages 41-42, “Alignment”, “Law and Chaos”, “Good and Evil”, “Alignments”; page 43, “Starting Coin”; equipment lists on pages 43-46; pages 47-48, “Determining Encumbrance”, “Ad Hoc Encumbrance”, “Encumbrance Formula”, “Worn and Capacity Objects”, “ Affects of Encumbrance”; all text
appearing on pages 49-116; pages 126-127, “Types of Saving Throws”; all text appearing on pages 127-135; page 134-135, “Damage”; page 135-136, “Turning Undead”; page 136-137, “Experience Points”, “Gaining Levels”, “Treasure”, “Movement”, “Spell Resistance”, “Languages”, “Vision”, “Time”. Also, the following open game content related words, phrases, and abbreviations wherever they appear: Strength (Str), Dexterity (Dex), Constitution (Con), Intelligence (Int), Wisdom (Wis), Charisma (Cha), Class, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Assassin, Barbarian, Monk, Wizard, Illusionist, Cleric, Druid, Knight, Bard, Paladin, Race, Demi-human, Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, Haling, Half-Orc, Hit Dice (HD), Hit Points (HP), Alignment, Lawful Good (LG), Lawful Neutral (LN), Lawful Evil (LE), Neutral (N), Neutral Good (NG), Neutral Evil (NE), Chaotic Good (CG), Chaotic Neutral (CN), Chaotic Evil (CE), Level, “to hit”, Damage, Experience Point, Saving Throw, Player Character (PC), Non-player Character (NPC), Turn Undead, Spell, Arcane, Divine, Magic, Spell Resistance, Item, Equipment, Armor, Weapon, Potion, Rod, Staff, Wand, Scroll, Ring, Wondrous Item, Artifact, Cursed,d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d%, round, and turn.

What is missing that a player needs?

[Traveller]

Look carefully at page 8 and you'll see that both the Primary and Secondary Attributes section as well as the Attribute Checks section are not open game content. In addition, the ten pages between pages 116 and 127 are not open game content. The two sections on page 8 as well as pages 117-126 reference the SIEGE engine. It's a little difficult to play the game with just the SRD if you have no means of determining who succeeds and who fails.

[Rigon]

I think what is needed isn't an SRD, but a free quick start guide (a little better than the old ones though).

R-

[Arduin]

Look carefully at page 8 and you'll see that both the Primary and Secondary Attributes section as well as the Attribute Checks section are not open game content. In addition, the ten pages between pages 116 and 127 are not open game content. The two sections on page 8 as well as pages 117-126 reference the SIEGE engine. It's a little difficult to play the game with just the SRD if you have no means of determining who succeeds and who fails.

I'm talking about the original complaint. A GM WITH the full rule books complained that there wasn't enough open content for him to give his players so that they could play with him. All the class abilities and spells are open content. With all that if a GM can't handle checks and the like, they shouldn't be running a game.

[Traveller]

@Arduin: The player using the SRD could create a character, but the SRD would have no information within it regarding primes, which a player creating a character needs to be able to play the game. It would require the CK to tell the player what his character's primes are. From a narrow point of view that could be seen as insufficient open game content to be able to play the game. But the reality is that you're correct in that there is an abundance of information that is open game content. However, some people apparently expect that a SRD be more like the Mutants & Masterminds SRD that you can find at d20herosrd.com versus the SRD that WotC released.

@Rigon: They still have an old version of the quickstart rules on the server, but the quickstart rules aren't linked to the Castles & Crusades page on the site. The PDF needs to be updated to the most current version and linked to the page, which would solve the quickstart problem. In the meantime, the old version is available for direct download from http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdfs/cnc_qs.pdf .

[Arduin]

@Arduin: The player using the SRD could create a character, but the SRD would have no information within it regarding primes, which a player creating a character needs to be able to play the game. It would require the CK to tell the player what his character's primes are. From a narrow point of view that could be seen as insufficient open game content to be able to play the game. But the reality is that you're correct in that there is an abundance of information that is open game content. However, some people apparently expect that a SRD be more like the Mutants & Masterminds SRD that you can find at d20herosrd.com versus the SRD that WotC released.

I'm SOLELY talking about being able to create and play a PC if the GM is there to fill in those couple pieces of info. Which can easily be done using what is open content in the PHB. But, as you alluded to earlier, being able to play a game for free isn't why the OGL and the SRD was created. It has since been latched onto by the "Data wants to be free" crowd (even though the "data" isn't self aware and wants nothing) who harp on publishers as being not internet aware/savvy if they don't give away their product for free.

[Treebore]

Look carefully at page 8 and you'll see that both the Primary and Secondary Attributes section as well as the Attribute Checks section are not open game content. In addition, the ten pages between pages 116 and 127 are not open game content. The two sections on page 8 as well as pages 117-126 reference the SIEGE engine. It's a little difficult to play the game with just the SRD if you have no means of determining who succeeds and who fails.

I'm talking about the original complaint. A GM WITH the full rule books complained that there wasn't enough open content for him to give his players so that they could play with him. All the class abilities and spells are open content. With all that if a GM can't handle checks and the like, they shouldn't be running a game.

True, its easy enough for a CK to explain what a player needs to know with regards to Prime, non Prime, etc... or do what I have mentioned previously to enable them to read that material, legally. Some players do need to see it in writing to fully grasp what the rules say. I know I certainly prefer to be able to read it, several times, to make it sink in.

So combine an SRD with the Trolls Quickstart, where that stuff is explained, and you have a workable, free, option to draw people in. So yeah, time for me to start putting the OGL SRD together. Link that with the Quickstart, and we can more easily draw people into playing, then hopefully become a fan.

[Arduin]

So combine an SRD with the Trolls Quickstart, where that stuff is explained, and you have a workable, free, option to draw people in. So yeah, time for me to start putting the OGL SRD together. Link that with the Quickstart, and we can more easily draw people into playing, then hopefully become a fan.

That would be the ticket all right.

[Treebore]

You know...some data that was shared to me through some colleagues in my field suggest the sales of the other "popular" retro clones and indy games may actually be abysmal compared to where I thought they may have been. If what I am looking at is true, forget my business case for the marking strategies of other indy publishers...I'm not seeing anything that I'd call a "success" from a business standpoint, at least when compared with the numbers with which I'm used to working.

Yeah, I am friends with Bill Webb of Frog God games, and even on talking terms with Matt Finch, and Swords and Wizardry is not going gang busters like Pathfinder is, but it has grown substantially in the last two years. So Pathfinder versions outsell Swords and Wizardry by many multiples for Frog God Games, for example, but it is still done at a decent enough profit that Bill still does it.

[Treebore]

I mean think about it, if the Trolls have sold 25,000 copies of the C&C PH over the last 9 years, that alone is still over $600,000.00 in sales, assuming a $25 sale average. Add in 10,000 for M&T, about the same for the CKG, and those three books alone have the Trolls doing over $1 Million in retail sales over the last 9 years. So just on these 3 books alone, we can assume the Trolls personal profit range is over $300,000.00. So while not awesome, its still above the poverty line, on just these three books. I know the Trolls have made over $2,000.00 in direct sales from me alone over the last 9 years, between my 19 copies of the PH, 6 of the M&T, Haunted Highlands, Rune Lore, the Codex's, and so on... Then there are the PDF's I have bought. Plus I am already in on the new Kickstarter for another $100.00.

[kreider204]

I mean think about it, if the Trolls have sold 25,000 copies of the C&C PH over the last 9 years, that alone is still over $600,000.00 in sales, assuming a $25 sale average. Add in 10,000 for M&T, about the same for the CKG, and those three books alone have the Trolls doing over $1 Million in retail sales over the last 9 years. So just on these 3 books alone, we can assume the Trolls personal profit range is over $300,000.00. So while not awesome, its still above the poverty line, on just these three books. I know the Trolls have made over $2,000.00 in direct sales from me alone over the last 9 years, between my 19 copies of the PH, 6 of the M&T, Haunted Highlands, Rune Lore, the Codex's, and so on... Then there are the PDF's I have bought. Plus I am already in on the new Kickstarter for another $100.00.

You're personally keeping Steve's fridge stocked with Dr. Pepper.

[Buttmonkey]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Trolls' margins are much smaller than your estimate implies. It would be great if they are rolling in the fat loot from those sales, though. Divide your proposed profit of $300,000 over nine years and across multiple Trolls and the income isn't that great. Making a living as a game designer is a rough pursuit. Nobody is getting rich anymore.

[Treebore]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Trolls' margins are much smaller than your estimate implies. It would be great if they are rolling in the fat loot from those sales, though. Divide your proposed profit of $300,000 over nine years and across multiple Trolls and the income isn't that great. Making a living as a game designer is a rough pursuit. Nobody is getting rich anymore.

I did say that they were just above the poverty line. With just those 3 books. So hopefully all the other books, adventures, dice, and other products help them double or triple those numbers.

[Treebore]

Plus my sales numbers are just guesses, based upon what I have seen the Trolls give actual numbers for, so hopefully I am low balling the numbers for the core 3.

[MrGrim]

A GM WITH the full rule books complained that there wasn't enough open content for him to give his players so that they could play with him. All the class abilities and spells are open content. With all that if a GM can't handle checks and the like, they shouldn't be running a game.

Arduin...I give!!! Unkle!!! YOU ARE RIGHT!!! ...when you perish wisdom shall die with you. Poor poor Earth and it's lonely denizens on that day!

I shall never GM another game and the poor kiddies can continue with their shiny, rules heavy systems. Foolish foolish me for trying to introduce these guys to the hobby as it once was.

*grovels before the mighty and all wise Arduin while tossing dust and sheep dung onto miserable head*

On a more serious note....sheeeeeeesh!

[Traveller]

Holy crap. Is it a full moon or something? Seems like everybody is overreacting today.

[Arduin]

Holy crap. Is it a full moon or something? Seems like everybody is overreacting today.

Must be some weird planetary alignment. If I only had updated astrogation charts for this star system!

[MrGrim]

Plus my sales numbers are just guesses, based upon what I have seen the Trolls give actual numbers for, so hopefully I am low balling the numbers for the core 3.

I honestly hope they are doing very well with it. They have made a great product. I've been buying their stuff for two years even though I only started running it just in the last few months. I think it is important to the hobby to keep the better indy publishers alive because they are now the custodians of the game I grew up with. Plus, I enjoy reading these books just to see the different takes on it from different publishers.

C&C is still my default onsite game.

[Geoffrey McKinney]

Due to space limitations in OD&D the Races header was removed.

Fascinating. Do you have a source for that?

What you say makes sense, and I do not doubt that you are right. But I would like to be able to back it up when I repeat it on the internet.

[Traveller]

Personal research using my physical copy of the OD&D rules. The evidence though I believe is overwhelming. In Men & Magic demihumans can be of a specific class. Greyhawk, upon introducing thieves, allowed demihumans to be members of that class instead of the classes possible in Men & Magic. If racial classes were intended there should be no ability to select the thief class instead of the classes given.

[Geoffrey McKinney]

Personal research using my physical copy of the OD&D rules. The evidence though I believe is overwhelming. In Men & Magic demihumans can be of a specific class. Greyhawk, upon introducing thieves, allowed demihumans to be members of that class instead of the classes possible in Men & Magic. If racial classes were intended there should be no ability to select the thief class instead of the classes given.

You're right. Plus the fact that on page 6 of M&M it clearly states, "There are three (3) main classes of characters: Fighting-Men, Magic-Users, Clerics".

[alcyone]

Personal research using my physical copy of the OD&D rules. The evidence though I believe is overwhelming. In Men & Magic demihumans can be of a specific class. Greyhawk, upon introducing thieves, allowed demihumans to be members of that class instead of the classes possible in Men & Magic. If racial classes were intended there should be no ability to select the thief class instead of the classes given.

It would be interesting to find out why exactly Moldvay broke from Holmes. It still wasn't a case of anyone could play anything, this mainly affected the thief. Maybe Zenopus knows. I don't quite understand why Moldvay and later editions would confuse people about OD&D and Holmes, but I got my start with Mentzer and I confess that when I finally even heard of OD&D I had that misperception as well, later cleared up at Finarvyn's excellent forums.

Anyway, count me in the camp that thinks race-as-class is peachy-keen, but also enjoys OD&D and AD&D.

[Kayolan]

Personal research using my physical copy of the OD&D rules. The evidence though I believe is overwhelming. In Men & Magic demihumans can be of a specific class. Greyhawk, upon introducing thieves, allowed demihumans to be members of that class instead of the classes possible in Men & Magic. If racial classes were intended there should be no ability to select the thief class instead of the classes given.

It would be interesting to find out why exactly Moldvay broke from Holmes. It still wasn't a case of anyone could play anything, this mainly affected the thief. Maybe Zenopus knows. I don't quite understand why Moldvay and later editions would confuse people about OD&D and Holmes, but I got my start with Mentzer and I confess that when I finally even heard of OD&D I had that misperception as well, later cleared up at Finarvyn's excellent forums.

Anyway, count me in the camp that thinks race-as-class is peachy-keen, but also enjoys OD&D and AD&D.

I don't know, it seems kind of strange to me that it could have been built on a mistake. I'm not saying that isn't possible, but wouldn't Gary have said no to it if that was the case? Or are you saying that a lot of people played it that way and so he decided to have it made official.

I always thought it was done to simplify the game, that it was intentionally done for that sole purpose.