Monk Weapon List.

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
User avatar
Gundoggy
Ungern
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:00 am

Monk Weapon List.

Post by Gundoggy »

In reviewing the monk weapon list, it's obvious it's still a remnant of the original 1E list made by someone with minimal knowledge of martial arts weapons. For example in Chinese martial arts alone, there are a variety of jian (straight double edged sword) and dao (single edged sabers) from very short and light to large examples that would best be described as greatswords (2 handed swords). I personally allow my PC's to use a much wider range of monk weapons especially swords.

A survey of youtube videos to illustrate my point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gsx6RQhm7A
(Miao Dao...a very long 2 handed saber)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7RlwSGj50
(video on Chinese 2 handed swordsmanship)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9VTu63NX5E
(video of one of the few Tai Chi teachers, teaching actual swordsmanship).

It's interesting to note that in some of Gygax's later works...Mythus for example, class restricted weapons lists did not exist.

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Treebore »

Yeah, I think the early Monk was far more influenced by a certain TV series than it was by actual literature, etc... of the Orient. So while the "mystical" side of it is represented well enough, the martial side clearly isn't. Fortunately weapon lists are easy to House Rule.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

alcyone
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
Location: The Court of the Crimson King

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by alcyone »

I don't think there is much harm in allowing a broader weapons list for most classes, though the problem becomes whether you want them to stop being who they are and rely on high powered magical items. With the monk this probably isn't a huge concern.

As a general thing though, I don't get too excited about whether this or that class reflects any sort of reality, a monk to me is a "D&D Monk", it's its own thing. But if you want it to reflect more historical training with a range of weapons, sounds cool to me. Weapon choice is probably one of the easiest things to change without making a mess, and Monk/Mystic have obviously had lots of previous interpretations, like the Bard, so have fun and if you come up with something awesome, post it.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com

User avatar
Gundoggy
Ungern
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:00 am

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Gundoggy »

Apart from the expanded weapon list, no other real changes. I had originally wanted to capture the concept of a Wandering Chinese Swordsman, common in Chinese Wuxia literature and movies. I had experimented with monk / half fighter concepts before realizing that you don't need the +1 weapon specialization to be a swordsman...it's a concept to be roleplayed vs. extracting every bonus one can from the rules. I have ruled that the iron fists ability can be used with a weapon.... allowing the concept of a very skilled combatant...with fists or sword able to hit magical creatures but avoiding the bloat of magical bonuses. ( and still not surpassing a fighter with high strength and magic weapon in terms of hit and damage bonuses)

Monks don't hit as well as fighters, but the greater number of HP and the HUGE number of saving throw bonuses make them an intriguing class.

Personally, I dislike magic weapons above +3 and really like the 1E magic weapon concept of +1 / +x vs. some narrow category of monster. The higher magic bonus and strength bonuses quickly cause what I term 'bonus bloat'. When I DM a game I love assigning +2 or more powerful weapon characteristics to weapons causing 1d4 or 1d6 damage vs. one that causes 1d8 or more damage.

User avatar
finarvyn
Global Moderator
Posts: 984
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Chicago suburbs
Contact:

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by finarvyn »

Monk weapons; the short list:
* Left fist (punch or chop)
* Right fist (punch or chop)
* Left foot (kick)
* Right foot (kick)
* Skull (head butt)
Marv / Finarvyn
Lord Marshall, Earl of Stone Creek, C&C Society
Just discovered Amazing Adventures and loving it!
MA1E WardenMaster - Killing Characters since 1976, MA4E Playtester in 2006.
C&C Playtester in 2003, OD&D player since 1975

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Captain_K »

I've got a limited view of Chinese weapons, but the CnC PH Monk listing is pretty good with the CK simply re-naming listed and PH weapons for flavor. You got two handed and one handed broad swords which are the classic 9 ring 2H, and the falchion & scimitar are Doa rather they be willow leaf, ox tail or goose quill vintage/style.

You just need a light weight straight sword aka long sword added and you're pretty well cover. You have all pole arms, staff and spear (s)?

So its not bad, OK, it does not have 7 or 9 section steel whips, Tiger Hooking Swords, Li Kwai Axes, or some of the nutty stuff, but you're pretty darn good.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Captain_K »

Oh, and what's with the "rock"? They have proficiency with rocks and others do not? Cool... or is it an inside joke?
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

User avatar
Gundoggy
Ungern
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:00 am

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Gundoggy »

I've always thought that RPG division of swords was a little too reductionistic.

Basically the Jian(GIM) straightsword is a cut and thrust sword. The Dao is basically a slashing sword although some versions were straighter and more 'pokey' in its usage. Swords also ranged from short (20"-26") to two handed versions. In comparing antique jian and dao to western straight swords and sabers, apart from slight differences in balance and hilts, a sword is a sword....

Also the term 'long sword' in RPG is very different than the terminology for actual weapons. If one were to look at actual weapon terminology one could divide them into the following:

short sword 1d6
single hand medium sword(arming sword, jian, saber, dao....) 1d8
long sword (bastard sword) 1d10
Great sword 2d6.

Having separate stats for various cultural variations on the above classes is not really necessary. If you study swordsmanship, there are many similarities between various cultural styles of sword use. Cultural snobbery aside, we all have 2 arms and 2 legs and all swords regardless of culture are bound by the laws of physics and metallurgy.

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Captain_K »

I second Gundoggy, change the names, add some flavor, use what's in the PH, move on. I'd bet someone has a nice cross reference table of CnC weapons and all the cultural names they best represent.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Captain_K »

Here's one for your Monk, two Sai in the form of Main Gauche.. Keep one inverted in your "primary" hand and treat it like a Cestus (+ to Open Hand damage) and the other outward as a guarding weapon, so +1 to AC. Don't want to use open hand damage "flip" the sai and use it for normal damage. Want to use two handed weapon combat, declare and go for it.. Most martial arts styles rich in weapons are also rich in double weapons, so this sticks with tradition and fits within the PH weapons list and Monk weapons and shield limits..

Its got a bit of rules bending, but I'd declare them flavor and allow, the Monk is not too powerful, this will not tip much of anything.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by serleran »

Captain_K wrote:I second Gundoggy, change the names, add some flavor, use what's in the PH, move on. I'd bet someone has a nice cross reference table of CnC weapons and all the cultural names they best represent.
Yes, someone does.

User avatar
DMSamuel
Red Cap
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:48 am
Location: Downstate NY
Contact:

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by DMSamuel »

serleran wrote:
Captain_K wrote:I second Gundoggy, change the names, add some flavor, use what's in the PH, move on. I'd bet someone has a nice cross reference table of CnC weapons and all the cultural names they best represent.
Yes, someone does.
LOL - does someone want to share?
~DMSamuel
---
Website: RPG Musings
Actual Play Podcast (5e): D&DeBrief

User avatar
Lurker
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:00 am
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Lurker »

finarvyn wrote:Monk weapons; the short list:
* Left fist (punch or chop)
* Right fist (punch or chop)
* Left foot (kick)
* Right foot (kick)
* Skull (head butt)

:shock: :lol: Toooo funny
Captain_K wrote:I second Gundoggy, change the names, add some flavor, use what's in the PH, move on. I'd bet someone has a nice cross reference table of CnC weapons and all the cultural names they best represent.
Rgr that!
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Arduin »

Captain_K wrote:Oh, and what's with the "rock"? They have proficiency with rocks and others do not? Cool... or is it an inside joke?
Only Hobbits (and proto-hobbits) also have the Rock weapon proficiency.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by serleran »

Assassins and fighters are skilled with the all-powerful rock. Also, giants.

REHowardfanatic
Hlobane Orc
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:59 am
Location: McEwen, TN
Contact:

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by REHowardfanatic »

Druids and Rangers are skilled in country. Also, rust monsters (little known fact).
Flaming is the alignment language of the internet.

If you like DC Heroes, come check out my blog:
http://mayfairexponentialrpg.blogspot.com/

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by serleran »

It is a well known fact that rust monster mommas don't dance. Therefore, it is unlikely their daddies will rock and roll.

User avatar
Zudrak
Lore Drake
Posts: 1377
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Audubon, NJ

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Zudrak »

serleran wrote:It is a well known fact that rust monster mommas don't dance. Therefore, it is unlikely their daddies will rock and roll.
:lol:
Psalm 73:26

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
-- E. Gary Gygax

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Captain_K »

So never get into a rock skipping contest with a Monk...

Someone who has a nice cross ref chart of weapons of other cultures as they lay out against PH weapons would be a great share for all.. the Asian flavored monk would be a nice sub-set... anyone got weapons listing for the "friar tuck" flavored monk?

Here's my short start, of Chinese Monk weapons, not limited to the existing Monk PH weapons list, but pretty close:
Sai = Main Gauche
Jain = long sword
Dao = scimitar, greater to normal or falchion - they come in a wide range - the 9 ring sword might be another subset
Tiger Hooking Swords - sword, hook
General Guan's or Kwan's "Knife" or Dao (aka Kwan Tao, the list goes on of alternate spellings) -really a double ended pole arm, Halberd on one end, spear on the other..
That brings us to double weapons, many use two sai, two straight swords (Jain), two scimitar (Dao), double tiger hooking swords, etc. or as noted above a pole arm with two heads. Use std rules, possibly permit the monk a bonus with two weapons or their strength bonus and dex bonus could apply (base rule is dex only no str with two weapons)? There are many double headed pole arms, double ended spear, etc.. takes two hands, count as a double weapon again with two attacks and known penalties.
Chain Whip (7 or 9 section) = A light flail with "reach", I'd guess d4 to d6 damage, pierce or bunt damage from the "dart", 3# weight, worn as a "belt" when not in use, range of 0 to 10', possibly even the footnotes of 3 &/or 5 apply.
nunchucks & short stick = clubs with style, not sure much change is needed.
beggar's bowl = Cestus
Li Kuei Double Hand Axes = Battle or Piercing Axes likely the later - clothing optional in battle (if you know you history/story)
Three section staff = staff with style?

That's enough for now, please add or comment
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Captain_K »

Cestus for the Monk, on the "weapon list, but one assumes their use as added to the Monk open hand and not a 1 point damage weapon...
Further they are almost gloves.. mixing them with or adding them to supple leather gloves, up to the elbow and above seems wise for most monks, just like wearing soft high leather boots and sturdy garment.. may not be armor but when you're punching and kicking all sorts of stuff, some of which should not be directly touched.. seems reasonable, fair and "not armor" or a weapon in hand per the monk rules while still giving them protection from punching something hard, spikey or "toxic".. a good washing and cleaning procedure or a way to strip them off quickly might be in order too.

Thoughts or concerns?
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

User avatar
Go0gleplex
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3723
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 7:00 am
Location: Keizer, OR

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Go0gleplex »

It's probably best to house rule the weapons list and customize the class to taste.

Not all martial arts delve into each and every weapon. Some don't use weapons at all to speak of. Each has its own style and traditions that don't necessarily overlap. So projecting 'realism' onto an RPG character class like the monk probably isn't realistic in itself. I would limit the individual lists though unless that particular art was focused on weapons and not the more religious/mystical aspects with the weapons as merely an extension of self-defense.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Captain_K »

I'm not sure classic or historic martial arts weapons are all that real any more than civil war buffs, but I get you point and agree fully.

One of my PCs noted that many threads believe the Monk is too underpowered and that WIS bonus to AC should be added... thoughts on that?
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by serleran »

Captain_K wrote:I'm not sure classic or historic martial arts weapons are all that real any more than civil war buffs, but I get you point and agree fully.

One of my PCs noted that many threads believe the Monk is too underpowered and that WIS bonus to AC should be added... thoughts on that?

There are plenty of historic "martial arts weapons" but they were not limited to "monks" and most were implements on the field of battle for one or more reasons. For example, a fun one would be the dragon cannon. I can see a monk whipping out one of those suckers and blowing up the party.

And... I do not think the monk needs any further AC adjustments. What it should do is start off higher, say at 16 - 17 (equivalent of chain mail + Dexterity) and then slowly get better like +1 AC / 2 levels. They are allowed to use magic rings and protections, as I recall, so it is not as if they are defenseless. Plus, they have a lot of HP. And they can heal themselves.

User avatar
Gundoggy
Ungern
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:00 am

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Gundoggy »

Captain_K wrote:I'm not sure classic or historic martial arts weapons are all that real any more than civil war buffs, but I get you point and agree fully.

One of my PCs noted that many threads believe the Monk is too underpowered and that WIS bonus to AC should be added... thoughts on that?
I have considered that. However I've left it alone. Monks get a LOT of saving throw bonuses over other classes. the d12 hitdice could also abstractly represent their fighting skill as well.

The character concept I love is that of a Chinese Swordsman, superbly skilled with the Jian (straightsword), wondering the land righting wrongs. In 1E the Kensai class in Oriental Adventures (more Japanese Adventures in terms of its focus) helped actualize this concept. In 3E I used multiclass fighter/monks to get the mix I was looking for. For a while I considered Monk/ half class Fighter in C&C.

I finally realized that the concept is more important than wringing every +1 bonus possible through the rules and decided to just use single class monk while allowing them to use swords. The 'superb' swordsman concept is more than covered by the abstractions of improving AC with no armor, BTH only 1 less than fighter, and d12 hit dice. Single class would also progress quicker than class and a half.

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Captain_K »

Our group just rolled up their second PCs and three of them have a monk in some flavor or other.. one will be the Ninja Monk-Assassin, one is a Illusionist-Monk and a third a straight Monk... should be an interesting mix of Monks and flavors...

One wanted a chain whip: Here is what I ended up with:

Steel Whip (Chain) @ 3,5: 13 gp, d6, 10ft (can reach to 10ft), 3#, 2EV (1EV if worn as belt). Can be used in "Two Weapon Combat".
Yes the @, 3, and 5 are the footnotes in the weapons sections.

Thoughts?
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by serleran »

I would use urumi as a baseline. I'll see if I can find it.

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Captain_K »

I sort of based it on the whip in the PH and the martial artist write up by Mishler for the Manriki-Gusari
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Arduin »

Captain_K wrote:Our group just rolled up their second PCs and three of them have a monk in some flavor or other.. one will be the Ninja Monk-Assassin, one is a Illusionist-Monk and a third a straight Monk... should be an interesting mix of Monks and flavors...

One wanted a chain whip: Here is what I ended up with:

Steel Whip (Chain) @ 3,5: 13 gp, d6, 10ft (can reach to 10ft), 3#, 2EV (1EV if worn as belt). Can be used in "Two Weapon Combat".
Yes the @, 3, and 5 are the footnotes in the weapons sections.

Thoughts?
Can't be used against adjacent (5') or closer opponents.

Don't worry. If your player has really ever used a whip they will expect this restriction.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2282
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Captain_K »

Arduin, Doesn't CnC NOT use facing, such that turning 90 degree to attack an adjacent is a no time action? Thus can there ever be a delay or penalty for attacking an adjacent? I know chain whip reasonably well, you just fold it in half and it's half the length and basically a short length of chain you can just beat folks with.. which brings me to a follow up question, "Strength bonus with a chain whip?" Seems a bull whip no.... but a chain whip only within say 5' or direct melee combat.

Main Gauche as sai, what if a monk used two, in both hands, elected no attach and defend only... would that be double defense bonus stacked with the normal AC bonus for defense only without attack? Odd line, what if a fighter held two small shields, one in each hand, double defense bonus?
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Re: Monk Weapon List.

Post by Omote »

Captain_K wrote:Arduin, Doesn't CnC NOT use facing...
I don't mean to get into the middle of this discussion, but I disagree with the first part of your statement. If you really read between the lines, there is positioning around a target at the core of C&C combat. If that be true, you'd have to assume facing is present, right? And yes, I do understand that the C&C combat rules never go into that sort of detail but I content that the barest of bones about facing is there based on the positing rules.

Sorry. Go about your discussion.

~O
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

Post Reply