Starting equipment packages ...

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:05 pm

Something for C&C 2.0?

I wish I had thought to mention this back when they were putting out the updated C&C PH. A list a starting package of equipment and left over gold is about the only thing that stops C&C from being played within 10 min. of opening the book if you've got newbies. ("Okay, just roll the dice, write down your bonuses, pick your class, write down your starting equipment package and let's get started!!!")

I can't count how many times I'd be sitting around for another hour waiiting on the rest of the party to by equipment because I picked the package and was read to go.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:42 pm

There won't be a C&C 2... but maybe you could mention it as an option for the CKG, which is where such things should go anyway.

Packages are ok, but should be based on the campaign itself. For example, a "standard package" might be useless in a campaign set in the bronze age, where most of the weapons and armor listed isn't even invented yet. Therefore, several "packages" are needed...

Gnostic Gnoll · Post by **Gnostic Gnoll** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:00 pm

Yes, but so might pseudo-Asian mystics, a horse-based warrior caste, or three-quarters of the equipment in the equipment lists, but that doesn't prevent them from being in the PH. Playing in anything but the implied pseudo-medieval setting of both the game's title and contents is going to require mild-to-extensive reworking anyway, and not always in sheer deletion. So I can't see it being anything but a boon to include standard equipment packages for that implied setting.

Barring that, anglefish, it might be a good personal undertaking! Present a list to your frequent CKs, or prepare one in advance if you want to run your own game. Though it has got me thinking, and I might try my hand at compiling one of my own...

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:17 pm

If I were going to do something like this, I would have at least 3 different starting packages for each class. It still makes character creation "faster", but it also still allows for individualism by the player.

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:41 pm

I forgot to mention the archetype package, too. For example, a lightly-armored, ranged-attacker (ie, rogue or assassin) or a medium-equipped hunter (ranger, or barbarian) and so on. The idea is cool, but not PHB required. This kind of supplemental, make-it-easier, CK-dependant stuff is for the CKG, by definition.

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:08 pm

eh. The only thing I make people pay for is weapons and armor. Other than that they can take "reasonable" equipment without calculating the cost and have some pocket change to start. It's not worth arguing over the cp for two candles or three.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:38 am

Ugh... Isn't there anybody out there who actually likes to equip a character without taking predetermined character packages? No offense, but this is just a pet peeve that really annoys me.

I'm not sure how "shopping" could possible take an hour during character creation?! But maybe that's just me.

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Gnostic Gnoll · Post by **Gnostic Gnoll** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:22 am

People have different priorities in their games. Attention to equipment is one of those varying priorities, whether in its purchase or in its use. Your pet peeve is another person's relief.

I completely disagree with the C&C PH when it tells me, "Perhaps one of the most enjoyable aspects of character creation is purchasing equipment before beginning play." I think it's actually the most tedious, boring, time-consuming and--in the end--pointless parts of character creation, beyond picking a weapon or two and some armor.

But that's my own opinion, and it also is influenced by the way my former group (I moved) played. I would not mind being involved in a game where attention to equipment mattered (and was in fact trying to garner larger support for it in my group before moving), but until I know I'm in such a game it's a waste of my time.

And even if equipment does matter, starting packages help those who are content to just take the essentials. It's also a huge benefit to new players, who have enough to worry about. Sitting them in front of a list of household items is an unnecessary complication. If they came to the game of their own interest and bought a book in advance and have been reading it for a few days/weeks and digesting everything, then yeah, it might make more sense. But a lot of new players I find tend to be getting a lot of their information at the table in the first session. C&C might be a lot less to deal with than other fantasy RPGs, but it's still a lot to digest.

So a standard equipment package for each class would be--in my mind--fairly beneficial. It doesn't need to be detailed or take into account a variety of situations or character types within a class, because the folks interested in that are going to either dive to their equipment list or ignore it completely. They would help games get started faster, and help newbies out a lot.

Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:48 am

A list of "standard" equipment packs (especially if there are a range of different ones to choose from) could also be used in NPC stat blocks:

i.e.

Equipment: long sword, chain mail, standard wilderness equipment (package G)

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:50 am

Dude. Seriously.

Packages would be nice, and I've often thought of making up my own just so my players didn't take FIFTY FREAKING YEARS TRYING TO DECIDE BETWEEN A LONGBOW OR SHORTBOW.

Just my two coppers....

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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:21 am

I think it would be a good idea... an optional one that can be used as need be. It's the type of thing that could make life just a bit simpler at times.

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:08 am

I would find "packages" very useful, especially for newer players.

I have had many players over the years (due to living in military towns with highly transient gaming populations) and I would estimate a solid third liked shopping.

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:56 pm

I just make it simple. No one has any money. (5gp max)

... yeah I'm not even kidding. Usually I can figure out a reason for it. If I can't then I'll suffer the consequences of shopaholics in my group.

That being said, I never had a problem with it. My group loves the shopping part and so do I frankly.
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cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:52 pm

When I wrote the Encumbrance section, I based it somewhat off of the following "Basic Adventurer's Kit". Sadly, it didn't get included into the rules. Note that the EVs reflect the changes in the Encumbrance Errata Thread.

BASIC ADVENTURER'S KIT

Backpack - Worn - 2 EV - 2 GP

Scroll Case - In Pack - 1 EV - 1 GP

Parchment - In Scroll Case - 0 EV - 5 GP

Iron Rations - In Pack - 4 EV - 3 GP

Small Sack - In Pack - 1 EV - 1 SP

Torch - In Pack - 1 EV - 1 CP

Armor and Weapon Oil - In Pack - 1 EV - 1 GP

TOTAL EV in PACK: 8

Total Weight of Pack and contents: 5 EV (1 for pack 4 for contents)

2x Large Belt Pouches - Worn - 2 EV - 2 GP

Whetstone - In Large Pouch - 1 EV - 2 CP

Chalk - In Large Pouch - 1 EV - 1 CP

Flask of Oil - In Large Pouch - 1 EV - 1 SP

Charcoal sticks - In Large Pouch - 0 EV - 1 CP

Total EV in Pouch 1: 2

Total EV in Pouch 2: 1

Total EV of Pouches and contents: 3 (2 for pouches 1 for contents)

Small Belt Pouch - Worn - 0 EV - 1 SP

Miscellaneous Coinage - In Small Pouch - 0 EV - Varies

Bedroll - Hanging off pack - 3 EV - 1 SP

Waterskin - Hanging off pack - 3 EV - 1 GP

50' Hemp Rope - Hanging off pack - 3 EV - 1 GP

Total EV: 17

Total Cost: 16 GP, 4 SP, 5 CP

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:02 pm

Treebore wrote:
I would find "packages" very useful, especially for newer players.

I have had many players over the years (due to living in military towns with highly transient gaming populations) and I would estimate a solid third liked shopping.

That is true, sometimes I forget that players take hours doing something because they WANT to take hours doing something.

Reminds me of the time that I replaced RIFTS mechanics with a fast-paced superhero system. Ran like a dream, but my players hated it. They wanted to spend hours in combat showing off how they squeezed every +1 bonus into their PC.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:17 pm

Starting packages?? This concept is new to me and I'm surprised to see so much talk about it.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:59 pm

anglefish wrote:
That is true, sometimes I forget that players take hours doing something because they WANT to take hours doing something.

I have to comment on this remark and others like it. When building a character in C&C, there is not much to gain in the way of mechanical bonuses by spending a ton of time buying equipment.

Let players take time to buy equipment, and equip their characters the way they want them to instead of molding them into pre-packaged forms. The process of buying equipment could be an important one. Each piece of equipment bought could add "layers" to the actual character, and could help with roleplaying. For example, the player that buys the small iron cooking pot might just do so for well-equiptness(?) sake or could have been an integral part of the character's background. Purchasing equipment could let a player's imagination flourish with background and mental notes oh how a character will be played and develop.

This statement is obviosuly not true for all players, but I always warn against anything that can stifle the creation process (which to some is one of the most fun aspects of RPGs).

...............................................Omote

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Gnostic Gnoll · Post by **Gnostic Gnoll** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:26 pm

Which is precisely why standard equipment packages would be a supplement to and not a replacement of equipment lists. Not everyone is going to have their creative fires stoked by a list of cooking gear, spelunking equipment, clothing, and pack animals. And if they do, why not just give them the items they ask for and a small lump sum of gold, rather than crunching the math, especially if it isn't going to matter in terms of mechanical advantage? Why have prices at all?

Because some people are into that. Those of us who aren't can safely ignore item prices and/or equipment. Just like those who are into it could ignore standard packages. The standard packages themselves help, as previously mentioned, people in the middle ground and newcomers. The newbies can learn to love or hate equipment as they get more used to the game, or become those people in the middle ground.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:49 pm

Dristram wrote:
Starting packages?? This concept is new to me and I'm surprised to see so much talk about it.

You must not have played 3E at all. 3E has quick start "packages" done up for each class, including feat selections. Plus I am pretty sure I have played other RPG's that have the same idea, but I don't remember any specifically right now.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:05 pm

Treebore wrote:
You must not have played 3E at all. 3E has quick start "packages" done up for each class, including feat selections. Plus I am pretty sure I have played other RPG's that have the same idea, but I don't remember any specifically right now.

Oh those! I never used them as a player or DM. And no one I know ever does either. I personally thought they were a waste of space. But, after reading this thread, I can see the possible usefulness.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:10 pm

Yeah, I read your response about playing 3E in the other forum, so I guessed that you asked this question here because your groups never used them, so you forgot about them.

I used them as a "base" and modified it as I wanted. Made things a little faster/smoother.

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:15 pm

Want a starter pack?...here ya go. Just pick your armor and weapon and you're done.

Standard Adventurers Pack

Contents: Backpack, 2 belt pouches, 1 week rations, tinder box, torch, silver dagger, water skin (full), wineskin (oil), boots, spare clothes, wooden stake, small mallet, small bag, rain-cloak.

Optional: 20 ft. rope, sprig of wolvesbane, sprig of garlic, silver mirror.

At least, that's what I always use, though I let the players tweak it to add a couple items of their choice.
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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:34 pm

Dristram wrote:
Oh those! I never used them as a player or DM. And no one I know ever does either. I personally thought they were a waste of space. But, after reading this thread, I can see the possible usefulness.

Yeah. I was about the only person I knew who used them and I'd be sitting around, twiddling my thumbs, and thinking, "Okay, we could have been playing an hour ago," as my fellow players riffled through book for feats and equipment as if they were opening gifts for Xmas.

Bookeeping and shopping have never been a draw for me in an RPG.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:02 am

I never experienced players creating 1st level characters taking a lot of time to equip them. Maybe 10-15 min. tops.