How did we deal back in the day?

[Dristram]

It's been curious to me how CK's are having issues with the power of spells like sleep and invisibility as written in the PHB. The reason I'm curious is that they are the same as the spells used in OD&D, 1e and 2e, and yet DMs didn't have problems with them then. It seems that only after 3e came out, those spells are causing problems. Or is it just me?

Any thoughts as to why those spells cause problems now in C&C, but didn't for the 20+ years before 3e?

I will admit, that even being a veteran 1e & 2e player, those spells have caught me off guard and I'm a little dumbfounded.

[gideon_thorne]

Its perfectly obvious. We are all older and wizer and more sneaky now.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Omote]

haha, so, so true. I remember Sleep being a terror in Basic D&D, and therefore the most popular spell of the time.

............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[anglefish]

Well for one, we didn't have the internet to share ideas or complaints everywhere.
Part of it may be the "player enabled" atmosphere these days. As one friend of mine put it, back in the day the GM was in charge. It was his way or no way.

Now, players have more rules to support their argument or more bonuses they can find. When they go to other games, especially in a simliar vein, they still feel entitled.

[RPGmonk]

Omote wrote:
haha, so, so true. I remember Sleep being a terror in Basic D&D, and therefore the most popular spell of the time.

Verily, verily. Magic missle, web. What would a low level wizard do without those trusted friends. Surely not survive!

Peace,

[Treebore]

I didn't mind them back in the day because back then I wouldn't have adults break down into crying fits because I killed their character with such an unfair spell.

[Omote]

RPGmonk wrote:
Verily, verily. Magic missle, web. What would a low level wizard do without those trusted friends. Surely not survive!

Peace,

And there you have the most popular spells of Classic D&D, hands down (at least as far as I could tell):

Magic Missile

Sleep

Web

Oh man RPGmonk, good times, GOOD TIMES... and those times are back, baby!

........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[gideon_thorne]

Omote wrote:
And there you have the most popular spells of Classic D&D, hands down (at least as far as I could tell):

Magic Missile

Sleep

Web

Or, better yet, ones Thief makes great friends with a high level Magic-User when said thief saves the mages life.

See one happy thief walking around with a crossbow that fires magic missiles. "Say hello to my little friend" *zap zap zap zapzapzapzap*
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[anglefish]

anglefish wrote:
Well for one, we didn't have the internet to share ideas or complaints everywhere.

And thus this thread proves my point. LOL!

[Omote]

Well the spells could be considered "overpowered" when compared to the modern D&D rules, but with C&C I think not. Because, as a CK you know what the system can do to PCs, and you know how powerful magic can be compared to other low-levels. As CK you are not bound to hundred of pages of rules for every situation. With C&C the CK is free to modify or interpret a solution on-the-spot as needed and not be confined by pounds of rules.

I think when it comes down to it, C&C is not overpowered but, energizing. Let your players experience the power of Sleep and Invis through their own character's fingertips to feel the power. But don"t "break it off to hard" on them when the enemy goes throwing these same spells at the PCs.

Let live this spirit of spellwork in the eyes of all who play!!!

..........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Maliki]

Part of the "problem" if there is one, is that unlike earlier editions, thw wizard class in C&C has more than just a single first level spell, one sleep spell was not bad two or three can really tip the scales.
_________________
Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

[gideon_thorne]

Maliki wrote:
Part of the "problem" if there is one, is that unlike earlier editions, thw wizard class in C&C has more than just a single first level spell, one sleep spell was not bad two or three can really tip the scales.

And this, gentlemen, is what we like to call good strategy.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[irda ranger]

I think when we were twelve we just didn't care about balance as between players as much as we cared about (1) everyone having their schtick, and (2) "cool" and "fun." Strict following of the class archetypes guaranteed the first, and killing lots of orcs took care of the second. As long as the Wizard was on our side, and didn't try to use his power to bully the others, it was all good. In fact, we counted on him to have sleep prepared, with some scrolls as backup to boot. In turn the Fighters promised to protect him from the swords and other physical attacks. As long as the team worked (which is to say the PC's survived and the Orcs did not), and the gold was split equally, it was "all good." It didn't matter if one player was the one who got more "kills."

And any Wizard who got too big for his britches quickly found his spell components pick-pocketed and his spellbook taken by force by the 18/00 Str Barbarian. "Oh yeah, what'ch gonna do about it??" Because at the end of the day, a Wizard with no spell components and a broken jaw isn't going to be lording it over anybody.

That's how we achieved "balance" in the good ol' days.
As to why this doesn't come up often, I think it's because the discussion is driven by the "official" essays on roleplaying on the WotC site and in Dragon Magazine, etc. Most often inter-player problems can be handled between the players, in game or out of game, but the Machivellian tactics which are very, very pragmatic (and often the only effective solutions when dealing with people of certain maturity levels) won't make it past the official editors. They might look they are endorsing intra-party fighting. It's a shame really. The threat of losing your character and having to role up a new one several levels lower than the rest of the party is an effective deterrent for most "problem behaviors." At least, that's been my experience.

The other half of that apple is to not reward problem behaviors, but that's a different issue.

Quote:
Part of the "problem" if there is one, is that unlike earlier editions, thw wizard class in C&C has more than just a single first level spell, one sleep spell was not bad two or three can really tip the scales.

Can it ever. That's why you kill the other guy's wizard first ("Do not let him speak; he will put a spell upon us.") while protecting your own at all costs. See above about teamwork, and each PC having their role to play.
_________________
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[Dragonhelm]

irda ranger wrote:
(2) "cool" and "fun."

And sometimes I think that many role-players have forgotten this part. Maybe it's time to act like we're 12 again.
_________________
Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus

[Dristram]

Dragonhelm wrote:
Maybe it's time to act like we're 12 again.

Oh, how I wish I could! Things were more simple and exciting then!

[gideon_thorne]

anglefish wrote:
Well for one, we didn't have the internet to share ideas or complaints everywhere.

*chuckles* Indeed. Back in the day, one just got on with it and didn't agonisze over every little quibble. I guess a sign of old age is waxing endless over minutae. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[JediOre]

I say fire away. Spells are fun.

To me, nothing says "good times" like a successful party of PCs counting their loot and the players looking over my collection of modules deciding with one to adventure in next!

[moriarty777]

I say that considering a lot of these 'old classic modules' from back in the day were at times death traps... let the characters have their spells 'unmodified'.

Moriarty the Red
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Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

[serleran]

I had a problem with the 3E spells because they were coddled for the weak-minded player who thinks the most fun part of playing should be the character creation, whereas in earlier editions, creating the character was supposed to be the fast and easy part so the game could actually start. Now, the standard is spend years coming up with the ways and hows, and "design" the "build" at level 1-549375435734975347508345 to have the perfect loophole kobold of penultimate transformation, and also, 458734907531475943 PrCs and templates.

[irda ranger]

moriarty777 wrote:
I say that considering a lot of these 'old classic modules' from back in the day were at times death traps... let the characters have their spells 'unmodified'.

Moriarty the Red

Hell yeah. My friend Brian's wizard, Bob VI, needed all the spellpower he could get. Bobs I-V clearly didn't have enough.

I think that's another thing that has changed given the accretion of more and more complex rule systems is the feelings about character death and rolling up new ones. The whole "attachment" thing aside, killing a character is so damn inconvenient. It takes so long to make one in D&D 3.x that the player if out of the gaming session for the rest of the day. With a system like C&C, it's only 5-10 minutes (less, if you use a standard stat array, which I do) before the group "rescues a Dwarven prisoner." "Give me an axe" he growls, "and I'll win this war for you."
_________________
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[irda ranger]

serleran wrote:
I had a problem with the 3E spells because they were coddled for the weak-minded player who thinks the most fun part of playing should be the character creation, whereas in earlier editions, creating the character was supposed to be the fast and easy part so the game could actually start. Now, the standard is spend years coming up with the ways and hows, and "design" the "build" at level 1-549375435734975347508345 to have the perfect loophole kobold of penultimate transformation, and also, 458734907531475943 PrCs and templates.

Ugh, I know exactly what you mean. I am presently playing an Iron Heroes campaign where we have a guy like that. IH takes the equipment dependency out of the equation, but you still have the feats/ skills/ multi-classing to deal with - and he does. We're presently 6th level, and he has his character built out to 20th. It's disturbing, and a real kill-joy.

I don't even know why people bother. It's not like you can "win" a fight with a DM. The only thing you can do is a make a 1-or-2 trick pony and then brag about it when the DM allows for situations where you can use your trick.
_________________
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[Treebore]

I played with a guy like that out in CA, great guy, but I could understand the reason why. When I guest DMed my 3E conversion of Gauntlet and Sentinel it was the first time their characters had died in 15 years of playing.
Remember earlier in this thread when I said full grown adults crying because I killed their PC with an unfair spell? That was in CA too. Different group, though.

[irda ranger]

Treebore wrote:
I played with a guy like that out in CA, great guy, but I could understand the reason why. When I guest DMed my 3E conversion of Gauntlet and Sentinel it was the first time their characters had died in 15 years of playing.

I'm not sure what game they were playing - it doesn't sound like the D&D I know. I'm not even sure that qualifies as a 'game', since it appears there is no possibility of 'losing.'

Treebore wrote:
Remember earlier in this thread when I said full grown adults crying because I killed their PC with an unfair spell? That was in CA too. Different group, though.

Was it unfair, or effective?
_________________
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[Treebore]

I don't know either. I never figured out anything that made sense to me.

As for the unfair spell it was simply a fireball in a closed 15 foot square room. I didn't allow a save due to "conditional" modifiers. Actually, with modifiers I assigned, they could have saved only on a 20. He hadn't healed his character, even though he could have, several times, with his own potions, but it killed his PC so it was all my fault for using such unfair conditional modifiers, etc...

He wasn't actually bawling, but his eyes were full of tears and two or three rolled down his face, and his voice didn't sound like anger, it sounded like one of my kids when they didn't get their way.

Fortunately I quit that group soon thereafter. Got into a GURPS, L5R, and 3E games. All good to great. I even got to run Traveller for awhile.

[madirishman]

My personal favorite unbalanced spell from 1e:

***SEPIA SNAKE SIGIL***

Pretty much equivalent to a 9th-level spell (temporal stasis) at 3rd level.
(What? Unearthed Arcana unbalanced?)

Cheers,

Patrick

--

Patrick M. Murphy, Ph.D.

Mad Irishman Productions
www.mad-irishman.net

Slainte!

[Ryan S.]

irda ranger wrote:
I think when we were twelve we just didn't care about balance as between players as much as we cared about (1) everyone having their schtick, and (2) "cool" and "fun."

Man, ain't that the truth. I've been poring over old campaign notes and character sheets from the past 12 years--encompassing D&D 3/3.5E and AD&D 2E characters--in preparation for a big multi-campaign climax adventure that closes the books on all the games I've ran since high school (I'm trying to provide a proper ending, at long last, to all the memorable campaigns that sort of just died out or got replaced--it's currently codenamed 'Crisis on Infinite Campaign Settings'). Looking at all my players' old 2E character sheets, there's so much junk on there I can't even fathom now--characters with multiple kits, weird magic items, and enough Combat & Tactics/Skills & Powers rules implementations to make the term 'powergamer' look like a wholly inadequate label.

In any case, I'm having fun trying to figure out how all this stuff can convert over to C&C once the mini-campaign is over and I kick off my new C&C campaign. A dozen or so years sure does change the way you approach an RPG as a GM/CK.

[moriarty777]

Ryan S. wrote:
Man, ain't that the truth. I've been poring over old campaign notes and character sheets from the past 12 years--encompassing D&D 3/3.5E and AD&D 2E characters--in preparation for a big multi-campaign climax adventure that closes the books on all the games I've ran since high school (I'm trying to provide a proper ending, at long last, to all the memorable campaigns that sort of just died out or got replaced--it's currently codenamed 'Crisis on Infinite Campaign Settings'). Looking at all my players' old 2E character sheets, there's so much junk on there I can't even fathom now--characters with multiple kits, weird magic items, and enough Combat & Tactics/Skills & Powers rules implementations to make the term 'powergamer' look like a wholly inadequate label.

In any case, I'm having fun trying to figure out how all this stuff can convert over to C&C once the mini-campaign is over and I kick off my new C&C campaign. A dozen or so years sure does change the way you approach an RPG as a GM/CK.

I know what you mean, for me the easiest thing for me to do when contemplating the same issue was just to start from scratch.

I had a long standing campaign in Forgotten Realms... back when I thought it was cool and when it was still fresh. I had managed to bring most things to a close except for one mega campaign that never got finished. Elements from that campaign got resurrected years later and then abruptly stopped again. With 3.x -- I decided to incorporate some of the better stuff that got developed and used to a new campaign setting. That also abruptly came to a close. Then again, that one was partially due to system mechanics and lack of time.

With C&C, I thought to myself -- 'the hell with all of this... I just want to play again'. And that's exactly what I did. I chose to use Erde as a setting since it seemed closest to some of what I envisioned. Now, I'm tackling a new long term campaign which is a fusion of elements from 'The Lost City of Barakus' and 'The Temple of Elemental Evil'.

C&C... so versatile that I'm throwing a classic 1st ed module series and a 3.0 adventure/campaign setting and mixing it all up! And since this is set in Erde... the troubles at the Temple were centuries ago during Unklar's reign!

Of course, this is the sort of campaign size I said I'd avoid... but I always like an 'epic feel'.

Enjoy and let us know how you've wrapped all of this up!

Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

[irda ranger]

Ryan S. wrote:
Man, ain't that the truth. I've been poring over old campaign notes and character sheets from the past 12 years--encompassing D&D 3/3.5E and AD&D 2E characters--in preparation for a big multi-campaign climax adventure that closes the books on all the games I've ran since high school (I'm trying to provide a proper ending, at long last, to all the memorable campaigns that sort of just died out or got replaced--it's currently codenamed 'Crisis on Infinite Campaign Settings'). Looking at all my players' old 2E character sheets, there's so much junk on there I can't even fathom now--characters with multiple kits, weird magic items, and enough Combat & Tactics/Skills & Powers rules implementations to make the term 'powergamer' look like a wholly inadequate label.

In any case, I'm having fun trying to figure out how all this stuff can convert over to C&C once the mini-campaign is over and I kick off my new C&C campaign. A dozen or so years sure does change the way you approach an RPG as a GM/CK.

My apologies to those who don't get the reference, but I think what we're getting at here is that at some point we stopped playing Calvinball in favor of league-rules football; and that change was only what we thought we wanted, not what we actually wanted. If the genius of C&C is anything, it's that it helps us get back to Calvinball.
Other kids games are all such a bore

They gotta have rules and they gotta keep score

Calvinball is better by far

It's never the same; it's always bizarre
_________________
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[Dristram]

madirishman wrote:
My personal favorite unbalanced spell from 1e:

***SEPIA SNAKE SIGIL***

Pretty much equivalent to a 9th-level spell (temporal stasis) at 3rd level.
(What? Unearthed Arcana unbalanced?)

You misunderstand that spell. It's the spell you cast on PC's when their player doesn't show up to game and are carried around in the party's portable hole. That's how the PC is suddenly there when the player returns the following game session.

[The One and All]

moriarty777 wrote:
I had a long standing campaign in Forgotten Realms... back when I thought it was cool and when it was still fresh.

WHAT?? Back when it was.. "COOL".. Alright.. Alright.. I'll remember that next time Im coming to work and bringing you MCdo.. sniff..

*curls into a ball on the floor and starts weeping*