Troll Lord Games

Greetings.

First, some notes
PH p15. Under Intelligence says, "the number of languages a character can learn" referring to Intelligence Modifier.

PH p48. Under Race/Languages says, "This is a list of languages that members of the race are likely to learn in typical circumstances. The languages on this list can change at the Castle Keeper’s discretion. Characters with high intelligence have the potential to learn a number of additional languages. The number of additional languages is equal to the intelligence modifier."

PH p182. Under Languages says, "Every character begins play with the ability to speak a vulgate language. That is, a language that is common to many inhabitants of the region in which the adventure begins. Each race gets a certain number of racial languages. Beyond this characters receive language bonuses equivalent to their intelligence bonus. Learning languages is not something that can normally be done over night..."

CKG p30. Under Race and Languages says, "All beginning characters speak the common tongue, called Vulgate or Common. A character also begins play knowing how to speak additional languages depending upon the character’s race. The descriptions of each race detail a character’s starting languages. The character’s intelligence determines how many more languages he can learn. Characters with an intelligence of 13 can learn one additional language; characters with an intelligence of 17 can learn two additional languages."

CKG p31. Under Literacy says, "Characters cannot necessarily read and write the languages they speak. Writing and reading are not common skills for people in pre-industrial societies. For most adventurers, the need to read or write is very small, and the opportunity to learn such skills is uncommon."
. . .
"Characters can always choose to be literate in their primary language, whether Vulgate, Elven, Dwarven, etc. They are not necessarily literate in the other languages they speak. They must make an intelligence check to determine literacy for each known language."

My queries
It doesn't seem entirely clear whether a starting player character gets all the languages on his race list. It is somewhat implied but never stated definitely. They also use the phrase "likely to learn in typical circumstances" which implies choice/selection. The CKG suggests each PC also has a "primary language" and this might be from their race or Vulgate/Common Tongue. The elf list is "LANGUAGES: Common, Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, and Orc." So does an elf PC with Intelligence 17 automatically have (A) nine languages or does he have (B) one primary language with the choice of two others from the race list? Also the CKG suggests they would have to choose between Vulgate/Common Tongue and Elven as a primary language. This doesn't make much sense to me. I would think an elf would be literate in both.

It seems logical that any of the primary races would get Vulgate/Common Tongue and their main race language like Elven for elves. It doesn't seem logical that a PC should have seven or nine languages to start off with. Dwarves have nine languages on their list, elves have the seven as I mentioned, gnomes have six languages on the list, half-elves have five with some choices listed, halflings get seven languages on the list, half-orcs get three on their list, and finally humans have only the Vulgate/Common Tongue. It doesn't seem proper that humans being the most represented and typically well-traveled get only one language when dwarven PCs get between nine and eleven languages to start and dwarves have "relations are poor with almost all of them."

So how do you do it in your game? Thanks.

The character gets all off the languages listed in the racial entry for that character. The Int modifier tells you how many bonus languages (beyond the racial list) the character knows.

R-

Rigon wrote:The character gets all off the languages listed in the racial entry for that character. The Int modifier tells you how many bonus languages (beyond the racial list) the character knows.

R-

What Rigon said.

Also, going to the CKG to clarify PHB rules is not usually a good idea as the rules in the CKG are considered optional and not part of the core rules

Arduin wrote:Also, going to the CKG to clarify PHB rules is not usually a good idea as the rules in the CKG are considered optional and not part of the core rules

It is very true that there is a lot of optional stuff going on in the CKG but looking there isn't a bad idea. Its a $40 hardcover with lots of information. I might as well reference it some.

So the general consensus is that the C&C PH is using the AD&D First Edition approach to languages. Each race gets the gigantic list. Is that how most of you use it in your game?

If I am not running any particular setting I give them all of the languages in the list, and int bonuses give them extra.

In my own setting I don't like the idea that every single member of those races all took the same language courses. I let them take a language for each intelligence bonus, demihumans get their own language free in addition to common, and a player can choose to delay selection of a language until it comes up in play, but if they do, they have to make a SIEGE check.

Remember, demihumans are giving up a prime, so getting a bunch of languages is some compensation. And in-game, long lived races of course have a lot of time to spend learning these things.

Warunsun wrote:

Arduin wrote:Also, going to the CKG to clarify PHB rules is not usually a good idea as the rules in the CKG are considered optional and not part of the core rules

It is very true that there is a lot of optional stuff going on in the CKG but looking there isn't a bad idea. Its a $40 hardcover with lots of information. I might as well reference it some.

So the general consensus is that the C&C PH is using the AD&D First Edition approach to languages. Each race gets the gigantic list. Is that how most of you use it in your game?

Depending on the setting I'm using, I also let humans start out with a regional/country language.

R-

Here's how I do it:

1) All characters get vulgate.

2) Humans also get to choose a regional language (including some options based on religion).

3) Demihumans get all of the languages listed under their racial descriptions in the PHB.

4) How well a PC can manipulate the languages they know depends on their INT score:
INT 4-5 = can speak vulgate, but understanding may be difficult (like toddler-speak)
INT 6-8 = can speak 'roughly' (i.e. like a foreigner), no reading or writing
INT 9-10 = can speak well, but not extremely fluently - i.e. like a learned non-native
INT 11-12 = can speak fluently, can read roughly (grammar and syntax mistakes may be evident)
INT 13 = can speak fluently, can read fluently, can write roughly (grammar and syntax mistakes may be evident)
INT 15 = can speak, read, and write fluently

Usually this doesn't come up as very important when dealing with PCs (their 'face' is good at talking to others), and so this amount of detail is not completely necessary, but it has come up with NPCs, so I do use it.

Warunsun wrote: It is very true that there is a lot of optional stuff going on in the CKG but looking there isn't a bad idea. Its a $40 hardcover with lots of information. I might as well reference it some.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I use it a lot. It just isn't designed to clarify Core rules so much as add to them. I love some of the optional stuff in it.

Warunsun wrote:So the general consensus is that the C&C PH is using the AD&D First Edition approach to languages. Each race gets the gigantic list. Is that how most of you use it in your game?

That's how I read it. I customize the demi-human lists based on where they actually come from though. If an elf PC comes from an area with no gnomes, I see no reason they should speak it.

My house rules are based on a simple premise, "all PCs should be sort of equal"... Every Dwarf speaks 9 language fluently but Humans can only speak one is just too lopsided for me and I LOVE adding culture, race, regions, countries and foreign languages to the game. So for me languages, modern and ancient, are part of the flavor. Attached is I think a simple summary of PH and MT language numbers.

My house rule is to use the PC race languages like the MT suggests, these are available to the PC should they want or need them. All PCs speak "common" plus their true racial tongue (humans speak the local language - ex. Norse, Celtic, Greek, Egyptian, Finnish, etc.). Then 2d4 more languages based on PC and CK back story, religion, regional languages, etc. Int bonus, or penalty, languages are applied immediately. Bards are linguists by class and get one new language, modern or ancient, at every even level. Any schooled PC can also be a "linguist" as their secondary skill (profession) outside of their class. This allows them to learn languages at twice the normal rate. If the PC really builds languages into the backstory, why hold them back.

The CKG has good outlines for learning a language in game time, but usually picking up languages assuming you are not super low INT should be reasonably fast and tied to PC Level as well as game calendar time. If your PC really must learn a language to speak with his fellow PCs, the PC is assumed to be with them full time and is really immersed.. getting by in that language should not take more than one calendar year.. realism is fine, history is fine, but this is a game, PC travel, and I like to make them a cut above one language speaking, filth covered peasants.

Finally, I assume common is regional only, is not a true language, but a simple set of images, signs, hand gestures, and simple trader pigeon that allows two really different people to not kill each other, share food, buy and sell stuff.. but no great conversations will be taking place nor great works of literature be written in "common".

Here's what I do for my Greyhawk adventures, FYI:
• All PCs speak Common.
• All PCs also speak their respective racial language:
o Humans:
 Baklunish speak ancient Baklunish.
 Flan speak Flan.
 Oeridians speak Old Oeridian.
 Olman speak Olman.
 Rhennee speak Rhopan.
 Suloise speak ancient Suloise.
o Dwarves speak Dwarven.
o Elves speak Elven.
o Gnomes speak Gnome.
o Halflings speak Halfling.
o Half-Elves speak either Elven or a human clan language, depending on whether they were raised in a primarily elvish or human community.
o Half-Orcs speak the clan language of their human mothers.
• Characters of high intelligence speak an additional number of languages equal to their Intelligence modifier (e.g., a character with an Intelligence of 14 speaks one additional language). The CK is the ultimate arbiter of language availability.

My take on it is this: Humans speak common and as many extra languages of their choice allowable give their intelligence modifier and any cultural language i.e. Baklunish if he were from Greyhawk and was in deed, Baklunish.

Demi-humans get common and their racial language be it gnome, elf, orcish, dwarven, etc. Then if they have a high intelligence, they can choose extra languages form the racial list. Humans get to choose any extra language they want as long as it make sense. A fighter from a back water farming town doe s it get to choose demonic as a second language.

My biggest problem is allowing a group of PCs from all over the world and many races to communicate at a high level with a full language. The movie/book concept that everyone speaks "English" or "common" no matter who or what they are is too simplistic. I like them to speak together but do not force their PC creation to be all from one region. So we agree to one common language, or two, between all the PCs during PC language assignment and character creation. So my divers PC groups can have a common lang. The rest of the world need not be in on this, but the diverse PCs have many languages and typically one PC or the other can speak or read a given language. Further if they cannot, they must hire a local interpreter. works pretty well so far.