Troll Lord Games

I have started work on the first level of a megadungeon and so far it seems to be going well. However, I never really did much with dungeons of this size so I am not comfortable with the idea of them. So, I was wondering if anyone had tips for building them and making them feel natural instead of forces.

Questions I have are:

How big should each level be?

How deep should it be?

How do I keep it exciting and not boring or silly?

Come up with a rational as to why the "structure" is there. Who built it and what was its original purpose? Its history. Has it been modified, added to? By who? Why? When? What happened after? How long ago? As you answer these questions it will start taking shape.

That's all I got.

Requisite "you should get C&C's Engineering Dungeons to help you" post.

Really that says it all, it's a good starting point and highlights what Arduin said. As far as being natural, the CKG offers some insight into the ecology of some structures which may help. You can do a search for Gygaxian Naturalism and find all kinds of stuff, but this post from the Grogardia blog can get you started: http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/09/ ... alism.html

Julian Grimm wrote:Questions I have are:

How big should each level be? This varies (infact they'll all vary). If you're drawing it by hand just use one sheet of graph paper per hand. You can always expand later. Most recently the Emerald Spire Megadungeon by Paizo for Pathfinder, uses their standard 2' x 2' flip mat for each level (1" grid squares) if that helps.

How deep should it be? Castle Zagyg looks like it went pretty deep, Emerald Spire has 16 levels, Rappan Athuk has 15 and Castle of the Mad Arch Mage went 13 levels, but with Barrowmaze, it is my understanding that it goes down not out. What would be your campaign end game? If it's like the C&C PHB, then level 12 or 13 will be the limit of PCs (if you don't go extended to 24 like in the CKG). Then somewhere around 12 would be good. If you think You'll go higher you can always add more or make each level be 2 levels. The ruins of the castles level 1, the storerooms levels 2 & 3, the dungeons 4 & 5, etc. at least for stocking the dungeon and random encounters.

How do I keep it exciting and not boring or silly?Good question, but I would focus on writing it for you and what you'd like and enjoy seeing in a dungeon.

To keep it interesting, make it a series of mini adventures, with a number of interesting personalities the adventurers can actually talk with instead of kill. Have going in reveal a number of interesting secrets about the world setting, things like that.

Basically, do whatever you can think of to keep it from being a room to room meat grinder, and your doing a good job.


Like, Temple of Elemental Evil had the factions who were fighting each other, yet were supposedly united. It was still largely a room to room meat grinder, but if you take such over arcing ideas and flesh them out better, you can make yours vastly better.

As for how deep/big should you go? As big as you can without running out of ideas.

Played in with a guy that had several mega dungeons. Janet's Woods. Cornelius' Tower. Wolf Mountain. And Castle Misbegotten.

Janet's Woods had only one official level...rather, the entry room had 4 doors. What was behind those doors changed every time it was opened. Never did see the same room twice behind them. Cornelius' Tower (the guy was a dental mage of all things) Had seven floors above ground and more than 10 below. We never got past the 10th. Wolf Mountain was on top of Castle Misbegotten and both were ran by Sam and George. Twin 86th level mages of opposing alignment (and heaven help you if you got caught hurting the owlbears with Sam around). The two merged about 15 levels above/below the entry floor...and continued up and down for another 10+ in the opposing directions. I spent 14 years exploring those places and never saw the ends of any of them.

Jerry, their creator, used the really small square graph paper for his maps and a couple of those connected side to side with each other on a few levels. Mostly though, it was one level per page. He didn't use notebooks to write the room contents in either. He kept all the encounters on 4x6 cards in card file boxes and would switch things out as areas repopulated between our excursions. Megadungeon populations are like cities after a fashion. As Tree said...different factions control different areas. Alliances exist as well as enmity between them. As areas are cleared, others migrate into them after a while. If any of that helps.

Well, megadungeons aren't really my cups of tea. I tend to avoid them in my homebrews.

That said, back in the day I ran a group into Moria as part of a Middle Earth campaign, and before that they had gone through the "Goblin King's Cave". From that, I put together a few ideas for megadungeons (but never ran them).

I'd made each level be 2 - 3 sheets of graph paper taped side by side. Then I'd make the big features that linked multiple levels (a river running from a few layers and then water falling down through a layer or 3 to a lake that feeds water to the lower layers.

After that, I drew the bigger/important infrastructure for each level & how the levels were linked together. After that cam the small minutia that finished out the levels. That said, I NEVER mapped each inch of the level nor did I list every detale.

Oh yeah, behind that, the overall reason the dungeon was there - it governs the make up of the dungeon. Then the flavor for each of the levels - who controls what, how are they interacting with each other etc etc etc. Again, Not specifics for everything, just enough info to make the decisions in the game on the fly and tie everything together.

I have a massive tome that claims to be the largest dungeon in the world... havent read it. Got it as part of a lot.

concobar wrote:I have a massive tome that claims to be the largest dungeon in the world... havent read it. Got it as part of a lot.

Yeah, I have it and Worlds Largest City. It has too little "story" and too much "meat grinder" to it. Fortunately WLC is much better. Now, with WLD, the maps are pretty good, and it wouldn't be too hard to improve it yourself as your players go along.

Gnome Stew recently had an article on random megadungeon generation that you might find helpful:

http://www.gnomestew.com/tools-for-gms/ ... terations/

I also think sometimes forgetting about verisimilitude and seriousness altogether can free up your brain to focus on great standalone encounters. Same as any other adventures, as long as you are not totally insane with it, your players will supply context, they will see patterns where there are none. Same as many homebrew campaigns, you only need to keep a step ahead of the group and don't need to design the whole thing up front.

So, use that to your advantage, listen to the players, find out what they think is going on, and make that the basis of what you do next and put a twist on it.

A megadungeon is conceptually one thing, but doesn't need to be just one structure, doesn't need just one group and boss camping in it, and might have lots of ways in and out and across levels. Having ways for adventurers to get in and out as they go can make it more interesting. If you have access to Rappan Athuk or the big dungeon in Fight On! you can see it's broken into lots of smaller dungeons with lots of ways in and out, lots of factions that in some cases are completely unaware of one another.

One thing I like too is lots of tactical spaces. Lots of corners, no straight hallways to shoot down the next 3 rooms, lots of levels of elevation to gain the high ground or have to pass through vulnerable low ground, lots of evidence of smart denizens planning a skilled defense.

Local verisimilitude over global, I guess. Make a room make sense in its local context but every closet and restroom doesn't have to be part of some overall design. To resist making it a monster hotel, you'll need a lot of "empty" space. That is the most tricky, especially with huge dungeons. I remember when we were playing the 3.5 D&D adventure Nightfang Spire it had a placeholder for all of the empty rooms, saying they contained "debris and funerary wrappings" or something. We thought it would be funny to make that literal, every room contained funerary wrappings for no good reason. But that joke would wear very thin.

Finally, it might be best to just do it and ignore everyone. The beauty of the megadungeon art form is it's your vision, for you and your players. If you want something that someone already considers great, you can just buy it, but where's the fun in that? Well, some fun, but you know...

A very good Mega Dungeon to check out is Goodman Games Castle Whiterock. Its, imo, the best done MegaDungeon, that I am aware of. Lots of different groups and significant NPC's, all with agenda's and character and their own little story. The PDF was decently priced last time I checked. No idea how hard it would be to hunt down print copies. I have multiple copies, but I'm not willing to part with any of them.

I'm all about the "ecology" of the megadungeon these days. Why is this faction or that faction there? I used to build these massive complexes and filled with a myriad of denizens. Looking back on some of those these days, I chuckle. I remember playing (and running) ToEE like that. It was good fun, but not too long ago I ran it (not completely, unfortunately) with the factions and various groups vying for power and control (Hommlet vs. Nulb, the elemental factions, etc.) and playing them off against one another was a lot more fun. I think an important aspect of megadungeon design is why are they there, and why do they stay there? What keeps all these people/monsters/cultures/beasts in the same place? What would happen if you (or the players) removed that motivation? How would those things react to invasion (i.e. PC invasion)? Motivations and reactions of factions and power groups in a megadungeon is vital.

A lot of good advice here and I am reading it all. Thank you very much for the help. Keep it coming


I finished the first level mapping. Level 1 weighs in at 95 rooms with a sub-level of 36 rooms. The sub-level is an early experimentation lab for mages turned school. Stocking it has been easy enough with a few notes here and there to get them prepared for lower levels. There is also a trap of sorts in it to fix a bad ruling I made which is the last vestige of the recent reality shift in my game. It is up to them not to trigger it.

Stocking this bad boy will be fun and I am practicing with the sub-level before I go on to the main level. I experimented with blocks of rooms for things like an orc barracks and storage areas to get a more uniform feel on this level. Considering that myself and my players have not done much with megadungeons, I feel a training level would be nice. So this is what level 1 will be.

As for the make up of the dungeon it will be traditional in the sense the deeper you go the more dangerous and odd it becomes. I am borrowing some ideas from OD&D's Underworld volume for how the dungeon works. Basically it will transition at about level 3 to an underworld.

Now, concerning realism, verisimilitude and all that. I am forgoing ideas like machine levels, museums and bowling alleys in lieu of something more dark. The deeper they go the more dark, deadly and somewhat Lovecraftian it becomes. Plans for later levels includes an Egyptian type area that serves as a temple/tomb dedicated to Nyarlathotep, a mi-go mine and something to do with a yellow king. Of course this will be spread out and mixed with standard D&D type tropes as well.

All of this hinges on player reception and I am hoping the recieve it well. Otherwise I will have to do something different which, I always have someting in the chamber. I'll find out Wednesday if it all works.

Ugh. I wish I could remember where I read an article (blog?) on *why* underground dungeons make the most sense in a fantasy world due to so many aerial and large (giants, etc.) opponents that can render castles and other Earth-historic structures nigh-defenseless. The Megadungeon is really just a better protected region. It is then up to the writer/CK to decide how big a region that is: like a town, a city, a county, or even country.

I'll link to it should I re-discover the article. I'm vexed that I could not locate it via internet searches.

The next dungeon I want to use is one that has been looted before. So, I want to run myself through it several times, taking notes on what was done (rooms scorched by fire, monsters killed / reanimated, treasures destroyed, etc) for the next group and so forth to get a good grasp on its "history." That way, when the real party goes in, they have a sense that this place is used to it. More real but also changing.

Since I'm using FR and the party is in Waterdeep, I considered running them threw Under Mountain. But I find it daunting.

R-

serleran wrote:The next dungeon I want to use is one that has been looted before. So, I want to run myself through it several times, taking notes on what was done (rooms scorched by fire, monsters killed / reanimated, treasures destroyed, etc) for the next group and so forth to get a good grasp on its "history." That way, when the real party goes in, they have a sense that this place is used to it. More real but also changing.

Yeah, I wrote up an adventure like that. You'd think this would be a more common type of dungeon. Either that the dungeon is so resilient you can loot it forever, or lower level parties going into already looted dungeons for the scraps, looking for every secret door, etc.

Rigon wrote:Since I'm using FR and the party is in Waterdeep, I considered running them threw Under Mountain. But I find it daunting.

R-

Ack!!!! Daunting is an understatement!

Rigon wrote:Since I'm using FR and the party is in Waterdeep, I considered running them threw Under Mountain. But I find it daunting.

R-

Sure, but you are up to the task.

Megadungeons are cool and whatnot, but making them interesting is the key. I certainly remember when World's Largest Dungeon came out. Considering buying it more than a few times. Glad I didn't in the end. A friend of mine picked it up, and we played a few sessions back in the day. Anyway, I've got Castle Zagyg UW, but not too many other megadungeons. Whiterock was always tempting, but I never picked it up.

One thing I keep coming back to is that Megadungeons work better for an original or classic style game. I keep feeling that if I want to do one I would be better off using BFRPG or S&W as my system. I am hoping I am wrong but I will find out soon enough.

Julian Grimm wrote:One thing I keep coming back to is that Megadungeons work better for an original or classic style game. I keep feeling that if I want to do one I would be better off using BFRPG or S&W as my system. I am hoping I am wrong but I will find out soon enough.

I've not found that to be true. I've done them in D&D and C&C. What makes you think so? (just curious)

Aergraith wrote:

Rigon wrote:Since I'm using FR and the party is in Waterdeep, I considered running them threw Under Mountain. But I find it daunting.

R-

Sure, but you are up to the task.

I hope you're right...

R-

Arduin wrote:

Julian Grimm wrote:One thing I keep coming back to is that Megadungeons work better for an original or classic style game. I keep feeling that if I want to do one I would be better off using BFRPG or S&W as my system. I am hoping I am wrong but I will find out soon enough.

I've not found that to be true. I've done them in D&D and C&C. What makes you think so? (just curious)

Game structure and experience. C&C and AD&D seem more geared to long running campaigns than dungeon based ones. However, last night's session dispelled some of that and the players seem interested. On a side note, the store owner and I talked about putting both of our dungeons on the same world and maybe making a shared world between the other DM's. Since there is a good AD&D presence there this looks like it could be done.

Julian Grimm wrote:

Arduin wrote:

Julian Grimm wrote:One thing I keep coming back to is that Megadungeons work better for an original or classic style game. I keep feeling that if I want to do one I would be better off using BFRPG or S&W as my system. I am hoping I am wrong but I will find out soon enough.

I've not found that to be true. I've done them in D&D and C&C. What makes you think so? (just curious)

Game structure and experience.

I meant, specifically mechanics wise. AD&D was THE game that intro'ed the dungeon crawl genre of adventures.

Mechanically I see no reason why it couldn't. However, with the simpler class structure of D&D/OD&D and the rules dealing more with dungeons it just feels like a natural fit for mega dungeons to go that way. To me, the advanced game seemed better suited to story based campaigns with the occasional crawl. However, you have to remember that my introduction to the game was in the above fashion. D&D was played for more dungeon geared games and AD&D was played for long term campaigns.

A YMMV situation if there ever was one.

I have considered running a mega-dungeon as part of a new campaign. One idea I had was to use some existing source materials but create new dungeon levels that fit on a convenient map size. Many of my players throughout the years have dipped into a level of this or that famous dungeon and completed some of them. But if you use new dungeon levels and encounters it can be a new and fun experience. Basically, create my own version of Undermountain or Castle Greyhawk or Maure Castle. Our group throughout the years and editions have played many versions of these famous dungeons.

Lately, I have been doing a lot of the theater of the mind type combats in C&C. Basically, going without tactical setups for combats. I have setup miniatures or gaming stones for a few big combats or special encounters but far in between lately. So part of that "mode" means doing a mega-dungeon could be easier since that style leads to less physical props to be made but also a mega-dungeon in my mind anyway also leads to physical props as either player handouts/maps or tactical setup maps. Either way if I do go the route of a mega-dungeon I would want a level or "level section" to fit on a gaming table surface. A lot of the old school products didn't consider the gaming table surface. But cool looking player map handouts could work too.

Lot's of great advice here, so I'll keep this short. I'll agree with others in that, having some NPCs "staged" throughout that the PCs can actually talk to and interact with is key (and "NPCs" in a megadungeon can be a ghost or a magical talking fountain for example). It will break up the grindiness that can build up over time and make it feel more alive.

I'd also point to Barrowmaze. I quite like the setup there. I think it strikes a good balance between funhouse megadungeons and fully fleshed out ecological dungeon settings. It's neither, but has elements of both.

Also, traps. Make awesome and pants stainingly scary traps and hazards. Not necessarily deadly or instakill or SoD stuff, but just gruesome stuff. It's especially awesome if the party can come upon triggered traps that would have been insane to get past (instead they see the corpses of the last party to come through), so they can fear for what's ahead. Foreshadowing is fantastic.

Another thing to consider. With all the adventurers coming to a megadungeon once it has become well known, brave shop owners may set up businesses at a convenient distance to support the would be heroes (and get first crack at whatever riches they bring out of the place). So a town or two may spring up with its economy based on the dungeon...and possibly even promoting said dungeon to regions far away to ensure their safety (profits).

Go0gleplex wrote:Another thing to consider. With all the adventurers coming to a megadungeon once it has become well known, brave shop owners may set up businesses at a convenient distance to support the would be heroes (and get first crack at whatever riches they bring out of the place). So a town or two may spring up with its economy based on the dungeon...and possibly even promoting said dungeon to regions far away to ensure their safety (profits).

Yes. Not unlike gold rush boom towns. Blacksmiths, supply General stores, Red light area, etc.