Troll Lord Games

I am reading over the Magic Item creation rules, and in my opinion, they are pretty much completely screwed up.

First off, I hate the XP cost version, so as far as I am concerned, throw those in the garbage.

So in order to do it with the high cost option, the one I like, because it is more like 1E AD&D, you have to find, research, or pray for a "Ritual Creation Spell". WTH?!? Why the heck did they not just say, among everything else it can do, that the Permanency Spell is also the "ritual creation spell"? Since they did not do that, why the HECK didn't they put such a spell in the spell section of the PH?

So personally, I am scrapping how its, badly, written in C&C, and just go back to doing it how it was done in 1E, with the Enchant Item spell and the Permanency Spell for permanent items.

Perhaps because, if the creation is a ritual, it may not require direct spell casting ability allowing any class to create items suited to them or to a given character. Imagine, for example, the fighter that does some elaborate ceremony, perhaps dipping his sword in the blood of many enemies, hammering against the forge and so forth, to pull back and be surprised and amazed that he has now formed a long sword +2, vs. orcs.

C&C is as much about the story element as it is the mechanics. And, it is more "open" and "free" in relation to what came before... to give the Castle Keeper whatever leeway is needed for the fun.

If you revert to only how AD&D allowed item creation, the above scenario is done. The fighter is now dependent on a wizard. That is a serious change in flavor.


If you have access to Earthdawn, I highly recommend reading over the items (especially the creation / empowerment) and class leveling. It was not what was in mind, necessarily, but it has the exact feel.


[Edit]

Replaced a T with a W for clarity.

Treebore wrote: So in order to do it with the high cost option, the one I like, because it is more like 1E AD&D, you have to find, research, or pray for a "Ritual Creation Spell". WTH?!? Why the heck did they not just say, among everything else it can do, that the Permanency Spell is also the "ritual creation spell"?

It is a spell/ritual/"feat" that it is up to the CK to create based on how magic items are created in his world. Perm spell is designed for certain specific spells/effects. Although I'm sure many CK's use it for Arcane item creation. As far as items made by clerics/druids. GM definition of method is somewhat traditional from 1st Ed. AD&D...

I use the GP cost method for "common" items such as low level weapons/armor and XP method for the powerful stuff.

serleran wrote:Perhaps because, if the creation is a ritual, it may not require direct spell casting ability allowing any class to create items suited to them or to a given character. Imagine, for example, the fighter that does some elaborate ceremony, perhaps dipping his sword in the blood of many enemies, hammering against the forge and so forth, to pull back and be surprised and amazed that he has now formed a long sword +2, vs. orcs.

C&C is as much about the story element as it is the mechanics. And, it is more "open" and "free" in relation to what came before... to give the Castle Keeper whatever leeway is needed for the fun.

If you revert to only how AD&D allowed item creation, the above scenario is done. The fighter is now dependent on a wizard. That is a serious change in flavor.


If you have access to Earthdawn, I highly recommend reading over the items (especially the creation / empowerment) and class leveling. It was not what was in mind, necessarily, but it has the exact feel.


[Edit]

Replaced a T with a W for clarity.

Currently, as written, a Fighter, Monk, Bard, etc... still has to work with a spell caster, so there still is no change in the "flavor". So the scenario is already "done". Plus I am not reverting to hwo it is written in the M&T, I am writing my own, based on my own concepts and how it was done in 1E AD&D.

In fact, I will share with you what I have written so far...

Magic item Creation.

First off, two spells are required.

The first is called "Enchant an Item", all spell casters can have access to it via research (Arcane or Runemark Classes) or prayer (Divine Classes).
Simply put this spell makes an item receptive to accepting and holding magic. On its own, it enables items to hold "charges", such as Wands, Staves and Rods.
For such items to permanently hold the spells imbued requires the Permanency Spell, and for purposes of creating magic items ONLY, all classes can obtain
and use the Permanency spell. All other aspects of the spell only work for Wizards and Runemarks, as written.

The whole process takes a month for any item. During this time the items are treated with a range of things, such as various bodily fluids, plants, etc... to
establish and strengthen the proper magical resonances within the item. Key words within the "Enchant Item" spell itself are also repeated on a schedule
spelled out within the spell throughout the month. The item being enchanted must be kept within 1 foot of the enchanter throughout the whole month, or
the process is ruined, instantly. The daily rituals take place over an 8 hour period, the remaining 16 hours of the day can be spent sleeping or meditating,
as well as eating, etc...However, the enchanter cannot focus on other intensive tasks. The spell is also cast in conjunction with the cycle of the moon,
preferably as the Moon transitions from being a "New Moon" to a "Full Moon". On the nights of the Full Moon are when the magic resonances are
strongest, in particular as the Full Moon "sets", and the Sun is about to rise,
which is why the rituals conclude at this time. For permanent items, this is when the Permanency Spell is cast as the final part of the ritual.
Only spells that the enchanter can personally cast can be put into the item. Enchanters can work as pairs to create items with spells only one of the
enchanters knows. Both will have to follow all the requirements over the course of the month, including remaining within 1 foot of the item.

For charged items, the enchanter must be able to cast the required number of charges to fully charge the item within the month time frame. So during the intial enchanting process, 2 or more spells can be cast into the item each day. However, when it comes time to recharge, only one charge can be restored per day. During the recharging process the Enchant Item Spell must be cast once again, and all the Enchanting requirements must be performed and met again, however, this time, the enchanter can stop the process whenever they wish, which is usually when the item is fully recharged.Since the recharging process can potentially take up to 50 days in the case of Wands, enchanters usually stop at 30 days and resume the recharging rituals at a later date. However, a determined Enchanter can continue until the wand is fully recharged.

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote: So in order to do it with the high cost option, the one I like, because it is more like 1E AD&D, you have to find, research, or pray for a "Ritual Creation Spell". WTH?!? Why the heck did they not just say, among everything else it can do, that the Permanency Spell is also the "ritual creation spell"?

GM definition of method is somewhat traditional from 1st Ed. AD&D...

The Enchant Item spell spells out quite a lot on how it is done, time, special materials are often needed, and that the Permanency spell is used, despite the fact that even in 1E, the Permanency spell description itself never mentions it is used in creating permanent magic items.

So the GM determination part of the method that is "traditional" is determining what the components actually are. The over all process and time, etc... is well laid out for us. We get to decide the particulars, if any.

This is what I have so far. I'm going to leave it for a day or two, then come back and see if I think of anything else I should add. Or if anyone brings up something that should be added.
Magic item Creation.

First off, two spells are required.

The first is called "Enchant an Item", it too is a 5th level spell, just like Permanency. All spell casters can have access to it via research (Arcane or Runemark Classes) or prayer (Divine Classes).
Simply put this spell makes an item receptive to accepting and holding magic. On its own, it enables items to hold "charges", such as Wands, Staves and Rods.
For such items to permanently hold the spells imbued requires the Permanency Spell, and for purposes of creating magic items ONLY, all classes can obtain
and use the Permanency spell. All other aspects of the spell only work for Wizards and Runemarks, as written.

The whole process takes a month for any item. During this time the items are treated with a range of things, such as various bodily fluids, plants, etc... to
establish and strengthen the proper magical resonances within the item. Key words within the "Enchant Item" spell itself are also repeated on a schedule
spelled out within the spell throughout the month. The item being enchanted must be kept within 1 foot of the enchanter throughout the whole month, or
the process is ruined, instantly. The daily rituals take place over an 8 hour period, the remaining 16 hours of the day can be spent sleeping or meditating,
as well as eating, etc...However, the enchanter cannot focus on other intensive tasks. The spell is also cast in conjunction with the cycle of the moon,
preferably as the Moon transitions from being a "New Moon" to a "Full Moon". On the nights of the Full Moon are when the magic resonances are
strongest, in particular as the Full Moon "sets", and the Sun is about to rise,
which is why the rituals conclude at this time. For permanent items, this is when the Permanency Spell is cast as the final part of the ritual.
Only spells that the enchanter can personally cast can be put into the item. Enchanters can work as pairs to create items with spells only one of the
enchanters knows. Both will have to follow all the requirements over the course of the month, including remaining within 1 foot of the item. Two checks
need to be made upon the items completion. First, and INT or WIS check to determine if all the steps were properly followed throughout. Failure can
mean failure, or an outcome minimally or even wildly different from that which was desired, or result in a Cursed item. CK decides. The CL is equal to
the highest level spell put into the item, so for a Wand of Fireballs, the CL will be a 3. The second check is a CON save, which is spelled out in the
Permanency spell description itself.

For charged items, the enchanter must be able to cast the required number of charges to fully charge the item within the month time frame. So during
the initial enchanting process, 2 or more spells can be cast into the item each day. However, when it comes time to recharge, only one charge can be
restored per day. During the recharging process the Enchant Item Spell must be cast once again, and all the Enchanting requirements must be
performed and met again, however, this time, the enchanter can stop the process whenever they wish, which is usually when the item is fully recharged.
Since the recharging process can potentially take up to 50 days in the case of Wands, enchanters usually stop at 30 days and resume the recharging
rituals at a later date. However, a determined Enchanter can continue until the wand is fully recharged.

Determining components:

The process is critical, because it is absolutely necessary to establish the correct magical energies, or resonances, within the item being enchanted.
To determine what components are needed is based upon common belief,. It is hypothesized that in many instances it is the common belief's that actually
imbue the non-magical components with the magical energies/resonances that they contain (or at least are believed to contain). Spell Casters have written
many tomes on what they believe numerous items have as "magical properties", so if you have such tomes, use them as your guide lines. Otherwise use
what you know, such as Blue gemstones are often attributed with powers related to water, wind, and purity. Red Gemstones are often associated with
powers of Fire, renewal, etc... Work with your CK to determine what the appropriate components will be.

Use of components from magical creatures are far more obvious. If you use remains from a Fire based being, they can obviously be used in the creation
of any fire related magic item. Components from a Displacer Beast will work for items invoking Displacement powers. Components from various Giants
aid in creating items that enhance STR and/or Constitution, and so on.

All components must be of the greatest "purity" possible, so always must be of the "Best Quality". Expert Quality for Weapons and Armors. Lesser
components can be used, but add a CL penalty of 5 to your final INT check if you do so. Truly inferior components add a penalty of 10 instead of the 5.

In general, "formula" for creating specific magic items are usually comprised of at least 6 non magical components and at least one component from some
magical beast or living creature that embody the "power" desired, such as Giants giving superior Strength and Constitution. Getting components from the
magical Giants, Fire, Frost, Storm, are obviously the best to obtain. For a "Bane" power you will need blood or some other acceptable component from
the "enemy" of whatever the "Bane" is against. For example, against creatures of evil, you would collect blood from a Paladin, or good Cleric.

Determining cost:

Base cost for just casting Enchant an Item is averaged out to be 5,000 GP. If you obtain the components yourself, which most all be fresh, (IE less than
30 says since collected from living creatures or harvested plants), you can work with your CK to lower these costs down to 1,000 gold. You must also
have an enchanting room/chamber or similar type of location. This is critical because such locations are set up to eliminate undesirable magical energies.
You can do Enchanting without such a location, but it will add 10 to your INT CL check, greatly reducing the likelihood of a desired outcome, and be far
more likely to totally fail or result in a Cursed item. If you have to create such a location yourself it will cost 10,000 GP, and to "purify" it after every item
is completed will cost an additional 1,000 GP each time.

Additional cost is determined by the spells/powers imbued. A "level" must be determined. For spells, this is already done. For other desired powers, that
do not have a spell, the CK will have to decide. Each decided upon level adds 1,000 GP, so for imbuing Fireball, it will cost 3,000 GP over the duration
of the enchanting ritual. For a +1 Sword, it will cost a total of 2,000 GP, plus the cost of constructing the Sword itself.

Treebore wrote:




The Enchant Item spell spells out quite a lot on how it is done, time, special materials are often needed, and that the Permanency spell is used, despite the fact that even in 1E, the Permanency spell description itself never mentions it is used in creating permanent magic items.

So the GM determination part of the method that is "traditional" is determining what the components actually are. The over all process and time, etc... is well laid out for us. We get to decide the particulars, if any.

I was referring to cleric & druidic classes in 1st Ed. They didn't have access to either of those spells. So, more open to DM interpretation.

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:




The Enchant Item spell spells out quite a lot on how it is done, time, special materials are often needed, and that the Permanency spell is used, despite the fact that even in 1E, the Permanency spell description itself never mentions it is used in creating permanent magic items.

So the GM determination part of the method that is "traditional" is determining what the components actually are. The over all process and time, etc... is well laid out for us. We get to decide the particulars, if any.

I was referring to cleric & druidic classes in 1st Ed. They didn't have access to either of those spells.

Now that you are entering the "over 30 club", there will be a test.

Yep, which is why I had house rules back then as well. I rarely find any RPG perfect in every way. In fact, I cannot think of a single RPG that I didn't end up House Ruling something about.

Just with C&C, since I consider it "perfect" at its core, I have written far more House Rules than usual to have it be perfect in every way possible for me. Often covering issues the Trolls themselves failed to address, intentionally or otherwise. Or in this case, addressed badly enough that I am prompted to create my own cohesive system. Especially since it is normal for me to run Campaigns well into the level range where the players can create their own Magic Items. Such as my current Campaign, the Wizard and Runemark are 9th level, soon to be 10th. The Druids are 9th and 10th level, so they have a ways to go.

Treebore wrote: Yep, which is why I had house rules back then as well. I rarely find any RPG perfect in every way. In fact, I cannot think of a single RPG that I didn't end up House Ruling something about.

Same here. I have never used item creation rules as written. In any system. Mostly because how I treat magic and items changes from one campaign to another. Required for a consistent feel in the game world.

As I understood it, a ritual creation spell is literally that; a spell which takes a long time to cast and which you have to get hold of as if you were acquiring a new spell on PHB page 51, so instead of adding a conventional spell to your spell book when you gain a level, you could add +2 Sword Creation Ritual instead, or research the spell under the rules the CK has to make up, or get Mul-the-lackwit to let you see Llewellyn ab Owain and he might sell you his version.

TensersFloatingDisk wrote:As I understood it, a ritual creation spell is literally that; a spell which takes a long time to cast and which you have to get hold of as if you were acquiring a new spell on PHB page 51, so instead of adding a conventional spell to your spell book when you gain a level, you could add +2 Sword Creation Ritual instead, ...

I doubt that is what the authors had in mind exactly. A different spell for each type/class of magic item. That sounds more like a highly detailed creation feats paradigm from the 3.x debacle. Although you could do this in a campaign where you wanted to make even low level magic items extremely difficult to manufacture...

TensersFloatingDisk wrote:As I understood it, a ritual creation spell is literally that; a spell which takes a long time to cast and which you have to get hold of as if you were acquiring a new spell on PHB page 51, so instead of adding a conventional spell to your spell book when you gain a level, you could add +2 Sword Creation Ritual instead, or research the spell under the rules the CK has to make up, or get Mul-the-lackwit to let you see Llewellyn ab Owain and he might sell you his version.

Well, that is essentially what I have Enchant Item be, a month long, very intensive ritual, that varies from item to item by the specific material components needed. My main problem with that particular aspect is that they never detailed it, so I did, based on how 1E AD&D did it.