Bard's Fascinate

[alcyone]

A bard of a higher level can have other effects as part of Fascinate, e.g. charm. Would the charm effect replace the fascinate, or do the victims need to save against Fascinate and then save again vs. Charm if they fail, or something else?

[Snoring Rock]

A bard of a higher level can have other effects as part of Fascinate, e.g. charm. Would the charm effect replace the fascinate, or do the victims need to save against Fascinate and then save again vs. Charm if they fail, or something else?

As the bard rises in levels, the power of the fascination increases
as well, allowing the bard to further influence the listener through
suggestion. These specialized uses of the fascinate ability can only
be performed on creatures who are under the influence of the
bard’s fascinate ability. At 5th level, a bard may attempt a charm
person on a fascinated creature. At 8th level, a bard may attempt
to implant a suggestion into a fascinated creature. At 12th level,
a bard may attempt antipathy/ sympathy on a fascinated creature.
At 18th level, a bard may attempt a mass suggestion on fascinated
creatures. In each case, the creature receives a saving throw to
attempt to resist the spellsong.

Is says to attempt it on a fascinated creature. So yes, there would be a second saving throw. Attempting something brings with it the possibility of failure.

[Rigon]

A bard of a higher level can have other effects as part of Fascinate, e.g. charm. Would the charm effect replace the fascinate, or do the victims need to save against Fascinate and then save again vs. Charm if they fail, or something else?

Is says to attempt it on a fascinated creature. So yes, there would be a second saving throw. Attempting something brings with it the possibility of failure.

That's how I would rule it.

R-

[alcyone]

same or subsequent round?

[Arduin]

same or subsequent round?

I'd treat it like spell casting of two different spells. A round is only 10 seconds after all.

[Rigon]

same or subsequent round?

Subsequent. Like Arduin said, it's basically casting 2 different spells.

R-

[serleran]

Once you're affected by the original effect, there are no secondary saves. The effect simply gets more powerful and allows the bard to abuse you more readily. Save once, or not at all.

And I know that goes against the above, but I'm saying how I would rule it, whether anyone else agrees or not.

/end fascinate.

[Arduin]

Once you're affected by the original effect, there are no secondary saves. The effect simply gets more powerful and allows the bard to abuse you more readily. Save once, or not at all.

And I know that goes against the above, but I'm saying how I would rule it, whether anyone else agrees or not.

/end fascinate.

I understand the no additional save part but, the actions are listed as separate and sequential, time wise.

[serleran]

Once you're affected by the original effect, there are no secondary saves. The effect simply gets more powerful and allows the bard to abuse you more readily. Save once, or not at all.

And I know that goes against the above, but I'm saying how I would rule it, whether anyone else agrees or not.

/end fascinate.

I understand the no additional save part but, the actions are listed as separate and sequential, time wise.

Yes, its like a continual spell effect with a choice of what to do each round. I liken it to hold person where, once you're immobilized, someone else could move your arms into a position, and then the next round, make you open your mouth. You don't get to resist this because you didn't prevent the initial effect. It takes them time to do it.

It's not the best analogy, of course, but I think appropriate enough to see the line of poor logic.

[Arduin]

Once you're affected by the original effect, there are no secondary saves. The effect simply gets more powerful and allows the bard to abuse you more readily. Save once, or not at all.

And I know that goes against the above, but I'm saying how I would rule it, whether anyone else agrees or not.

/end fascinate.

I understand the no additional save part but, the actions are listed as separate and sequential, time wise.

Yes, its like a continual spell effect with a choice of what to do each round. I liken it to hold person where, once you're immobilized, someone else could move your arms into a position, and then the next round, make you open your mouth. You don't get to resist this because you didn't prevent the initial effect. It takes them time to do it.

It's not the best analogy, of course, but I think appropriate enough to see the line of poor logic.

That's what I thought. Once the "program" is running the Bard can change effects.

[Aramis]

Yes, its like a continual spell effect with a choice of what to do each round. I liken it to hold person where, once you're immobilized, someone else could move your arms into a position, and then the next round, make you open your mouth. You don't get to resist this because you didn't prevent the initial effect. It takes them time to do it.

It's not the best analogy, of course, but I think appropriate enough to see the line of poor logic.

Hmmm.

Just a note to you Live Action Role Players out there. The next time you are at a Con and Serleran offers to play the evil cleric DO NOT join that game

Just don't do it

[Go0gleplex]

I'm going to fall into the second saving throw crowd, specifically because of how the ability is worded as pointed out above. The key phrase for each additional effect is "may attempt to..." meaning in my mind that said effect is not an automatic success, and thereby would be subject to a CHA check as the initial fascinate. I guess a second question, unless I missed it, would be if these augmented abilities are also limited to one attempt per 24-hr period.

[Arduin]

I guess a second question, unless I missed it, would be if these augmented abilities are also limited to one attempt per 24-hr period.

"Bards can use this ability three times per day, and can maintain
the effect for a number of rounds equal to their level."

[Lurker]

A bard of a higher level can have other effects as part of Fascinate, e.g. charm. Would the charm effect replace the fascinate, or do the victims need to save against Fascinate and then save again vs. Charm if they fail, or something else?

Is says to attempt it on a fascinated creature. So yes, there would be a second saving throw. Attempting something brings with it the possibility of failure.

That's how I would rule it.

R-

Would or did

[Rigon]

A bard of a higher level can have other effects as part of Fascinate, e.g. charm. Would the charm effect replace the fascinate, or do the victims need to save against Fascinate and then save again vs. Charm if they fail, or something else?

Is says to attempt it on a fascinated creature. So yes, there would be a second saving throw. Attempting something brings with it the possibility of failure.

That's how I would rule it.

R-

Would or did

Actually, they were leary of the group, so by the wording of how Fascinate works, they were not able to be fascinated.

R-

[Warunsun]

Speaking of bards...

I have one vocal player that just isn't down with the C&C version of a Bard. He has complained about them but since he didn't play the class it hasn't mattered. So far in two campaigns no one has done one. I think the bard is fine being a more martial swashbuckler type character than a caster as in traditional D&D. Also using multi-classing you can recreate old school bards (albeit with a huge experience chart). I have had NPC companion characters join the main group for one adventure. One of them was a "first edition" style bard being a human Brd/Drd/Rog and the other was a more "second edition" style one being a half-elven Brd/Wiz (if she was a human could have gone with Brd/Wiz/Rog but wanted a demi-human). I thought mechanically they covered the traditional bards well but I have to admit the experience cost is large but so are the class abilities.

Does many of your players do the straight up C&C bard or do they mix in multi-class or Class and ½?

[Lurker]

Would or did

Actually, they were leary of the group, so by the wording of how Fascinate works, they were not able to be fascinated.

R-

Leary of little ole us, why, we were out looking for a filly and a good cup of ale

[Rigon]

Speaking of bards...

I have one vocal player that just isn't down with the C&C version of a Bard. He has complained about them but since he didn't play the class it hasn't mattered. So far in two campaigns no one has done one. I think the bard is fine being a more martial swashbuckler type character than a caster as in traditional D&D. Also using multi-classing you can recreate old school bards (albeit with a huge experience chart). I have had NPC companion characters join the main group for one adventure. One of them was a "first edition" style bard being a human Brd/Drd/Rog and the other was a more "second edition" style one being a half-elven Brd/Wiz (if she was a human could have gone with Brd/Wiz/Rog but wanted a demi-human). I thought mechanically they covered the traditional bards well but I have to admit the experience cost is large but so are the class abilities.

Does many of your players do the straight up C&C bard or do they mix in multi-class or Class and ½?

I changed how the bard works. I like it and it works rather well.

R-

[Omote]

Speaking of bards...

I have one vocal player that just isn't down with the C&C version of a Bard. He has complained about them but since he didn't play the class it hasn't mattered. So far in two campaigns no one has done one. I think the bard is fine being a more martial swashbuckler type character than a caster as in traditional D&D. Also using multi-classing you can recreate old school bards (albeit with a huge experience chart). I have had NPC companion characters join the main group for one adventure. One of them was a "first edition" style bard being a human Brd/Drd/Rog and the other was a more "second edition" style one being a half-elven Brd/Wiz (if she was a human could have gone with Brd/Wiz/Rog but wanted a demi-human). I thought mechanically they covered the traditional bards well but I have to admit the experience cost is large but so are the class abilities.

Does many of your players do the straight up C&C bard or do they mix in multi-class or Class and ½?

In my current campaign I have two full-on bards, with no class additives. In a few years of play, one of them is 9th level and the other is 8th. I find those characters to be scholar-type fighters. Their bardic-lore abilities have had me on my toes to create much depth to the campaign world. One of them have gone the archer-type route with max DEX and with the bard's BTH track, he is killer. He uses a strength-bow to add a few points of damage to each hit too. Pretty cool. The other bard is a high CHA type who specializes in lore checks and social situations. He is more of a spy-like character who infiltrates organizations to get what he wants out of them. Both bards are humans to maximize siege checks. They are pretty killer characters, and the bard class is just awesome.

~O

[serleran]

Yes, its like a continual spell effect with a choice of what to do each round. I liken it to hold person where, once you're immobilized, someone else could move your arms into a position, and then the next round, make you open your mouth. You don't get to resist this because you didn't prevent the initial effect. It takes them time to do it.

It's not the best analogy, of course, but I think appropriate enough to see the line of poor logic.

Hmmm.

Just a note to you Live Action Role Players out there. The next time you are at a Con and Serleran offers to play the evil cleric DO NOT join that game

Just don't do it

That's just all-around GI Joe advice.

/end PSA

[Snoring Rock]

I guess a second question, unless I missed it, would be if these augmented abilities are also limited to one attempt per 24-hr period.

"Bards can use this ability three times per day, and can maintain
the effect for a number of rounds equal to their level."

If it fails, that intended victim cannot be attempted again for 24 hours.

[Arduin]

I guess a second question, unless I missed it, would be if these augmented abilities are also limited to one attempt per 24-hr period.

"Bards can use this ability three times per day, and can maintain
the effect for a number of rounds equal to their level."

If it fails, that intended victim cannot be attempted again for 24 hours.

Yep. If they save, even on Bard's 1st attempt, they are immune for 24 hours.

[alcyone]

Actually, they were leary of the group, so by the wording of how Fascinate works, they were not able to be fascinated.

R-

As always I respect the DM's decision. I'd say though, that being leery is not quite enough:

The distraction of a nearby combat or other danger will prevent the ability from working.
That one actually may have thwarted it, if they actually heard it; it was upstairs and on the other end of the building, but possible.

Any threat that is obvious to the fascinated creature, such as the casting of a spell, drawing of a sword or aiming of a weapon automatically breaks the effect.
We didn't do any of that stuff, we just bought them drinks. Of course, we're a suspicious bunch and ask really stupid and obvious questions like "DID YOU SEE ANY WERERATS, DUDE?" that could be construed as a threat. But I could still see a little bard magic making them think, well, this guy might still be worth listening to.

Also, I understand there are always circumstances of which we aren't aware, e.g. they were the same people we just fought moments ago but looked different, or they had detect invisible on and saw the sneaking.

[Lurker]

... , we just bought them drinks. Of course, we're a suspicious bunch and ask really stupid and obvious questions ...

no, no, no, not suspicious, not us. We were out looking for our lords filly . Ignore the sewer soaked cloths, the dripping hair, nothing suspicious here

[alcyone]

Yeah, in retrospect they were awfully friendly to people soaked in sewage or with their clothes rotting off from gelatinous cube bile.

[Rigon]

Let's just say that it didn't work and explanations will have to wait.

R-

[alcyone]

A CK never needs to explain.

I have had players loudly proclaim "Well, it certainly went like this..." and make assertions about what OBVIOUSLY must be true in my game world and it wouldn't be otherwise unless I was a total IDIOT to get me to go "Oh, no, here's what really happened." But I bite my lip and let them find out the hard way.

[Rigon]

A CK never needs to explain.

I know, but everything will become clear soon. I'm sure.

R-