Thoughts on Multi-classing

[TheMetal1]

I'm pretty free wheeling when it comes to DMing (CKing) and for our C&C game (Running the A-Series) I've managed to allow a Cleric/Druid/Ranger Class who worships Artemis (big bonus in Of Gods & Monsters with the Bow for worshipers). We're using the 6th Printing Appendix: Optional Rules on page 187 and 188. No real issues with the experience points, he's about to make 2nd level when everyone else is already 3rd. So the pace is good. Hit Points are pretty good as well.

In retrospect, don't think I'd allow it again, primarily for the Cleric/Druid kind of contradiction, but adding the Ranger in with the Druid makes it a bit over the top. But hey YOLO and we're all having fun. Nothing so far has been an issue, but wanted to get some thoughts on how to handle spells. Right now I play pretty much RAW, that Divine Spell-casters, pray at the start of the day (24 hour cycle) for whatever spells they want on the spell list for that level. Arcane casters have only what's in their spell book.

The area in question is that we've been playing like it's two spell lists - one for Druid and one for Cleric. Not a lot of casting going on so he hasn't really leverage it, but I'm thinking that the since it is Divine, he would have access to both 0-Level and 1st-Level Spell lists for Cleric and Druid, but just one set of slots. So 3 x 0-Level spells and 1 x 1st Level spell (short of any wisdom bonus, which he may have, I just don't recall at this time). Does this seem unreasonable? Any thoughts on this?

[Arduin]

but I'm thinking that the since it is Divine, he would have access to both 0-Level and 1st-Level Spell lists for Cleric and Druid, but just one set of slots. So 3 x 0-Level spells and 1 x 1st Level spell (short of any wisdom bonus, which he may have, I just don't recall at this time). Does this seem unreasonable? Any thoughts on this?

Is he paying FULL XP for each Class level? If so that wouldn't be fair really...

[mmbutter]

Actually, if he's using the RAW, then the experience point cost is actually *higher* for multiclass than just a combination of each class' experience point cost. I think that since the player is paying a premium in terms of experience, he should get a full set of spell slots for each spell using class.

[Arduin]

Actually, if he's using the RAW, then the experience point cost is actually *higher* for multiclass than just a combination of each class' experience point cost.

Yes. Hence, "full XP cost" rather than a non-RAW scheme of some kind.

[Traveller]

@mmbutter: I don't agree. The character should have a single set of slots, but be able to choose spells from the combined lists of both classes. So the character gets a wider variety of spells to choose from but is still limited in the number of spells he can cast per day. If such a limit isn't implemented, the character may seriously outclass all the other characters, even with factoring in the XP costs.

Personally, I wouldn't allow combinations where two classes are similar. Thus, no Cleric/Druid, Wizard/Illusionist, or similar combinations. AD&D resolved this issue by making certain classes sub-classes of the main class, and Metal1 can do something similar in his games in the future by defining it as a house rule. For example, a statement of "a character of a given class may not choose a similar class as a second class for multiclass purposes" would suffice, and then followed up with an example.

If I set this up as a house rule, I'd spell out what class combinations weren't allowed.

Cleric cannot be druids and vice versa.
Wizards cannot be illusionists and vice versa.
Rogues cannot be Assassins and vice versa.
Fighters cannot be rangers, knights, or paladins. Rangers cannot be fighters, knights, or paladins. Knights cannot be fighters, rangers, or paladins. Paladins cannot be fighters, rangers, or knights.*
Bards cannot be barbarians and vice versa.**

*I'd debate on letting paladins multiclass at all.
**Bards are refined, while barbarians are rather coarse beings, thus the two are so diametrically opposed that the combination simply wouldn't work.

[Arduin]

If such a limit isn't implemented, the character may seriously outclass all the other characters, even with factoring in the XP costs.

Doubtful. A multi-class Wizard/Cleric is going to be roughly 1/2 the level (in each class) of his compatriots if the full XP +multi-class penalty is charged.

I don't see how a 2nd Wizard/2nd Cleric is going to outclass a 4th level Druid in any large way. I could be wrong and am missing something that you are seeing though.

[TheMetal1]

Is he paying FULL XP for each Class level? If so that wouldn't be fair really...

Valid point.

ctually, if he's using the RAW, then the experience point cost is actually *higher* for multiclass than just a combination of each class' experience point cost. I think that since the player is paying a premium in terms of experience, he should get a full set of spell slots for each spell using class.

Yes. For 2nd Level the PC has to earn 6,803, the multi-class rules add an additional 300XP to the 3 class totals (2,251 for Cleric + 2,001 for Druid + 2,251 for Ranger adds up to 6,503). For 3rd Level its an additional 600 for 4th Level its an additional 1200, 5th an additional 5000, and so on.

I don't see how a 2nd Wizard/2nd Cleric is going to outclass a 4th level Druid in any large way. I could be wrong and am missing something that you are seeing though.

Hey man, the Druid gets Woodland Stride at 3rd Level...

[Arduin]

Is he paying FULL XP for each Class level? If so that wouldn't be fair really...

Valid point.

ctually, if he's using the RAW, then the experience point cost is actually *higher* for multiclass than just a combination of each class' experience point cost. I think that since the player is paying a premium in terms of experience, he should get a full set of spell slots for each spell using class.

Yes. For 2nd Level the PC has to earn 6,803, the multi-class rules add an additional 300XP to the 3 class totals (2,251 for Cleric + 2,001 for Druid + 2,251 for Ranger adds up to 6,503). For 3rd Level its an additional 600 for 4th Level its an additional 1200, 5th an additional 5000, and so on.

I don't see how a 2nd Wizard/2nd Cleric is going to outclass a 4th level Druid in any large way. I could be wrong and am missing something that you are seeing though.

Hey man, the Druid gets Woodland Stride at 3rd Level...

I think as the CK you're main point of safety will be if you ensure that all PC's have the same XP totals. That should keep the multi-class from power creep.

[Traveller]

@Arduin: I was thinking of the issue of the character having double the number of spell slots at a given level, but in retrospect you may be right. After all, wizard/cleric combinations are a possibility.

TheMetal1 would have additional safety if he enforced alignment restrictions and stripped the druid class of its abilities for an alignment violation, along with ensuring the XP totals are balanced.

[Captain_K]

If you pay all the experience then you should get all the spells... druid/cleric is kind of odd, but could be allowed, not sure what it gains other than more lower level spells.. due to exp progressions basically doubling all the time the 2 class multi-class is usually about one level behind the rest of the group so 3/3 where the rest is 4.. obviously this is very dependent on rather we're talking about thieves or Paladins... but on average its about right. I have not done the triple class math yet but I would think it would be no worse than two levels behind..

Personally druid/ranger or cleric/ranger makes a great and "logical" multi-class for elves, half elves, humans of natural (Celtic) pantheons.. it plays rather well giving some fighting, reasonable armor and weapons plus some class abilities to go with the spells.

If you want to tweak the character without killing or scrapping it, just have some big event occur (divine visitation, near death, etc.) and reduce it the the essence of the character the way the player wants it and it sounds like cleric/ranger or druid/ranger is where the PC is going if they are not casting many spells, why have two sets...

Outside the basic rules you could have the Cleric give up some cleric spells or powers for more druid like stuff or the other way around... a Cleric could play like a druid in act and behavior especially with a Ranger as a second class without even bending or changing any rules...

But I think you have it right, "Having fun? Play on.. "

[Arduin]

@Arduin: I was thinking of the issue of the character having double the number of spell slots at a given level, but in retrospect you may be right. After all, wizard/cleric combinations are a possibility.

Yeah, I thought of that and checked it for the example I gave. It seems okay at the lower levels. I didn't analyze for high levels where you end up with far more powerful spells, doubled up.

[TheMetal1]

Thank you all for the feedback. A lot of good discussion. I think I won't change anything for now, the if you're paying full XP and then some, they should get full spell slots. The player enjoys the PC, and we're all having fun, so that's what matters. Thanks again.

[Warunsun]

I think as the CK you're main point of safety will be if you ensure that all PC's have the same XP totals. That should keep the multi-class from power creep.

I have been running C&C more or less the way it is written and none of the PCs have the same XP totals. Kind of hard to do that when treasure grants experience points individually.

[alcyone]

I think as the CK you're main point of safety will be if you ensure that all PC's have the same XP totals. That should keep the multi-class from power creep.

I have been running C&C more or less the way it is written and none of the PCs have the same XP totals. Kind of hard to do that when treasure grants experience points individually.

Well, sixth printing, p.181 is awfully wishy-washy about it. It says you can award xp individually or collectively, and then goes on to give recommendations on ways to do it. Especially if you follow the Magic Items xp practice people can get wildly out of wack quickly, even, maybe especially, in modules that have a light touch as far as magic items are concerned.

Role playing awards can do that too, but only if you are actually able to look your players in the eye and say "You sucked, you get nothing. You were ok, not great, here's 25. You, my shining star, here's 250. Everyone, look at his person, they know how to play."

I think when I played D&D as a kid I'd actually track who dropped which monster and give out individual xp that way, but that's way too much work.

If you let the players divide the treasure and then do XP awards based on that, you can get varying numbers. I always award XP split evenly disregarding how they split the treasure.

[Arduin]

I think as the CK you're main point of safety will be if you ensure that all PC's have the same XP totals. That should keep the multi-class from power creep.

I have been running C&C more or less the way it is written and none of the PCs have the same XP totals. Kind of hard to do that when treasure grants experience points individually.

I ditched XP for items & cash back in 1st Ed days. I make up for it with story awards that gives it evenly to the whole group.