Poison

[Arduin]

PC Assassin: So, Baron Godefroy de Hapless-Victim loves mushrooms. I'm going to the woods to try and find some Death Cap or Destroying Angel for the banquet tomorrow and then... I'll somehow have to sneak into the kitchen...
CK: That's going to cost you 200-1000gp.
It doesn't make much sense that all poisons have to be fiendish concoctions brewed up amidst bottles full of bubbling liquid.

Of course. HOWEVER, if the PC wants something other than an ingested poison that goes bad in a short time, he's going to pay and have to actually put in lab work...

[TensersFloatingDisk]

Sure, a FEW poisons are toxic enough on their own to kill you, somewhat slowly, but if you want the instant death poisons, almost all of them need to be what amounts to distilled down into a purer, far more potent, poison. Especially in a world where there are spells, potions, and likely other means to counter a poison before it kills you.

There was never any such thing in the real world as an instant death poison to be applied to blades or arrows* and neither is it a mainstay of mythology or literature, so why include such a thing in a game, while attempting to balance it with prohibitative cost? If you're in a "magic shop on the corner" world where everyone who's anyone has access to healing magic, you're never going to murder anyone anyway because they'll just be raised from the dead.

Remember, even the Romans needed to have Doctors create the poison that was put into wells of cities to kill off the entire populations. (Which is one of the many reasons the Romans were so hated.)

[citation needed]

*don't go on Wikipedia, it keeps citing that same "booga wooga scary" page intended to lure tourists into the V&A museum in London as a reliable source.

[Arduin]

There was never any such thing in the real world as an instant death poison to be applied to blades or arrows*

You are incorrect. The poison from Phyllobates terribilis was used on arrows and can cause almost instant death in humans. It can be used to coat blades and stays potent until taken off the blade.

[Treebore]

Remember, even the Romans needed to have Doctors create the poison that was put into wells of cities to kill off the entire populations. (Which is one of the many reasons the Romans were so hated.)

[citation needed]

My wife, she is a Medical Historian, and talked to me about all the horrible things the Romans did, which is why they were so hated. Among which was having Doctors go into towns and literally poison the water wells. Which ultimately, a century or two later, led to Doctors developing and adopting the Hippocratic Oath. Since they too, as a profession, had become universally despised for doing such things as well.

[Treebore]

There was never any such thing in the real world as an instant death poison to be applied to blades or arrows*

You are incorrect. The poison from Phyllobates terribilis was used on arrows and can cause almost instant death in humans. It can be used to coat blades and stays potent until taken off the blade.

No, he is correct, nothing causes "Instantaneous" death back then. Eventually death, in minutes, or hours, but nothing as soon as you get hit with it, nothing within less than 10 seconds. That is a gaming thing, probable because in the RPG's, we have things like Neutralize Poisons, which can be administered within 20 seconds (2 C&C rounds), under ideal conditions. IE someone being nearby able to cast the spell, or having a potion/ointment available. Even today, if such potions/spells were available and on hand, there is nothing that will kill you within 10 seconds. Aconite, might, especially if the strike is close to the heart. Now poison GASES, especially ones based upon the metals, those can kill you instantly, but Assassins rarely use gases, because they usually are not precise enough to take out only the target. So if we go outside the typical modus operandi of Assassin's, then yes, there are instant kill poisons. But for injecting and ingesting via food? Nothing fast enough that a potion or spell cannot save you. So for RPG's, "instantaneous" is needed.

[Arduin]

No, he is correct, nothing causes "Instantaneous" death back then.

Well, a minute or two is close enough to instantaneous. It has to pass into the blood stream and act. Even a nuke isn't "instantaneous" as there is a measure of time before death. I watched the poison I mentioned drop a wild boar in about 30 seconds in P.R.

So, he's not correct in game terms.

[Treebore]

No, he is correct, nothing causes "Instantaneous" death back then.

Well, a minute or two is close enough to instantaneous. It has to pass into the blood stream and act. Even a nuke isn't "instantaneous" as there is a measure of time before death. I watched the poison I mentioned drop a wild boar in about 30 seconds in P.R.

So, he's not correct in game terms.

In game terms, he is effectively correct. If that boar had a Potion of Neutralize Poison handy, it would have lived. Plus a nuke, at ground zero, vaporizes people in well under a second, so impossible to even Teleport out of a nuked area. Anything that takes longer than 10 seconds, in C&C game terms, can be neutralized before death. So Instantaneous, for RPG purposes, means something that kills you within the round in which you are poisoned. So kills you in under 10 seconds. Now I have far from complete knowledge of every poison ever used throughout history memorized, but of the deadliest ones I am aware of, it takes longer than 10 seconds to kill someone via ingested or injected poisons. Which, in RPG terms, means they can be saved with a timely spell/potion. Which is why they created the "instant kill" poisons, in all likelihood. Remember, in early D&D, rounds were a whole minute. Now there are poisons that can kill you in about a minute. Usually with a lot of agony involved.

[Arduin]

In game terms, he is effectively correct. If that boar had a Potion of Neutralize Poison handy, it would have lived.

Not really. That was time to death. NOT time to effect where it was moving uncontrollably. Which was a few seconds. It wouldn't have been able to swallow anything. Also, most ciguatoxins when put directly into bloodstream rather than ingested paralyzes in seconds then, death.

[Captain_K]

I swear I watched National Geographic specials as a kid where a tribe of blow darting natives (frog poison I think) took monkey's out of trees.. I do not recall the little bugger doing much more than fall out of the tree pretty close to instantly... then they ate the monkey AND the men ate some of the same said poison (after being checked for rotting teeth or mouth wounds by the local chieftain).. so quick powerful to kill when in the vanes yet the meat could be eaten and the poison could be ingested.. making poison "cool stuff"... I do not worry about historic anything... for gosh sakes I have a Halfling Ninja throwing elven poison gas bottles into the face of 20 feet tall giant centipedes.. so realism is not too high on my list.. game balance and understanding what is written in the books is another story entirely.. which is what this thread was all about.. "what the heck is the book trying to say???"

[Treebore]

In game terms, he is effectively correct. If that boar had a Potion of Neutralize Poison handy, it would have lived.

Not really. That was time to death. NOT time to effect where it was moving uncontrollably. Which was a few seconds. It wouldn't have been able to swallow anything. Also, most ciguatoxins when put directly into bloodstream rather than ingested paralyzes in seconds then, death.

The poisoned person doesn't have to be the one to administer the antidote in an RPG, let alone real life. All you have to do in game is administer the cure in time. So yes, RPG wise, he is correct. You can come up with all the if's, and's or but's you wish, but with how things work in RPG's, if you can administer the cure the next round, the death effect wasn't instant enough. So in RPG terms, as soon as you are hit with the poison, you make the save, and either live or die. You don't even have one more second.

[Treebore]

I swear I watched National Geographic specials as a kid where a tribe of blow darting natives (frog poison I think) took monkey's out of trees.. I do not recall the little bugger doing much more than fall out of the tree pretty close to instantly... then they ate the monkey AND the men ate some of the same said poison (after being checked for rotting teeth or mouth wounds by the local chieftain).. so quick powerful to kill when in the vanes yet the meat could be eaten and the poison could be ingested.. making poison "cool stuff"... I do not worry about historic anything... for gosh sakes I have a Halfling Ninja throwing elven poison gas bottles into the face of 20 feet tall giant centipedes.. so realism is not too high on my list.. game balance and understanding what is written in the books is another story entirely.. which is what this thread was all about.. "what the heck is the book trying to say???"

You did see that, but what you didn't notice/remember was the little time jump the video took. It was fast acting, but it took a bit longer than it looked on film. Also, body mass of the target also affects what the poison will do to them, especially how fast, except for your gas, that goes right into the lungs and the bloodstream within a couple of seconds. Or in the case of Chlorine gas, burns your lungs out. So you suffocate to death.

[Captain_K]

Thanks, I guess at 8 years old or so I was not watching for the TV show editing to make it look fast... thanks all, great discussions!

[serleran]

I always find it humorous that real-world analogies are brought into play with a setting defined by its fantasy.

It makes sense to argue that "no such exists in this world" if this world is the stage for your pretend. But then... even this place has its myths and misnomers. Especially when folklore, magic, and religion is at play.

Oh well. In the end what boils the chaff for the assassin is the generosity of the DM -- they're assumed skilled in the collection, manufacture, and distribution of any kind of poison: venom, chemical, gaseous, and more.

[alcyone]

I am constantly telling players "Oh, this is D&D poison." "No, this is a D&D sword." "No, this is D&D water." whenever real-world issues come up. If I can find rules for it in the books, I generally follow them even if they don't match expectations of the real world. A fast moving simulation depends on abstractions.

[Treebore]

Right, all I have been saying is why they came up with "instant" in RPG's. Back in 1E AD&D "Instant" didn't really have to be "instant" because a combat round is a full minute, so real world poison questions back then could be answered with, "Oh, it has roughly a minute to kill you." In more recent versions of D&D, and C&C specifically, a round is now 10 seconds, so actually being an "instant" kill poison matters more now. Plus another point I have been trying to make is, in an RPG, if it isn't an "instant" kill, as long as it takes 20 to 30 seconds, or longer, you have plenty of time to administer an antidote, in gaming terms that is usually referred to as Neutralize Poison. So they HAVE to make poisons "instant" to be the threat they are meant to be in an RPG. Hence the difference between "real" world poisons, and an RPG poison.

[TensersFloatingDisk]

Why, though, are these instant kill poisons necessary in the first place? Wouldn't it be better not to have them in the game rather than having them in the game, but not really in the game because they are prohibitatively expensive and very dangerous to make and use? For me, the assassin's skill doesn't lie in producing some fiendish concoction which causes a victim to go, "Huurgh!" and keel over dead the moment a dart hits him, it lies in insinuating himself or herself into the victim's circle so as to be able to poison them with something more mundane but just as effective.

[Captain_K]

All good points but Neutralize Poison is a 4th lvl spell (7th lvl PCs) so the "poison is not deadly unless its super fast" might be wishful thinking to many PC groups below that level.. slow painful poison with ever increasing problems is kind of nice when the PCs can't just Neutralize it. It is a great attention getter and reason to "keep moving to the anit-dote"... but poison to me is just another plot twist &/or damage method... Dragon Flames are pretty impressive too.. not very realistic or real world and hard to "Neutralize"... I like the way TFD suggests to use an assassin, but my problem is once the NPCs start becoming "twisted evil spies" most NPCs tend to be "killed on site" or "not allowed into the inner circles.." so I can rarely play that card much and PC Assassins although like to do that sort of thing in the "long term" its slow and long and not at all "exciting in a battle".. the poison, the sneak attack, and the assassination are the assassin's great points of pride when asked to "take out the guards quietly" or stand their ground in a group fight.. everyone has their part to play and the assassin just wants to be like the Paladin and "kill the bad guys"... they just wear black and go about it in another way... but "dead bad guys" is "dead bad guys" ;}

[Snoring Rock]

So I have looked. Where exactly are the DC's listed for poison types?

[Arduin]

So I have looked. Where exactly are the DC's listed for poison types?

That's left to the CK to decide. "The Castle Keeper determines the challenge level by
such factors as the monster’s hit dice, the spell caster’s level or the level of the trap or poison."

For poisons I personally use 1-6 from the "types". Same for "animals" unless the amount of poison injected is very large. Then I use HD. The Toad familiar entry is good to read.

[Captain_K]

Snoring Rock, that was the whole reason for the thread... it tells you they're there but they're not.. my summary is pretty close to Arduin's.. many CKs use the Type I through VI poisons with a one per one penalty linked to the type, some CKs use as high as -3 points per each type (meaning a Type III poison would be -9 to make)... its been a lengthy thread for such a simple idea, but great discussions...

I'm likely going to split it down the middle which makes the Class VI poison's pretty hard to consistently make for low level assassins... with a -12 to the roll.

[Snoring Rock]

This is one of those things that should have been more codified in my opinion. I know, it is C&C but this one can be really crazy. I use the HD for monster poisons; like spiders, snakes and any other poisonous creature. That is easy.

But the type I-V poisons are not that easy. You could have a very dangerous poison (type IV) made by a low level assassin with a low CL (2). Or any other combination. I like the -3 per type but at the same time you can have a very potent poison that only incapacitates like a type I with a CL of 10. Like giving peanut oil to someone who is allergic to peanuts.....

I like the ideas presented here, but it depends on your campaign and personal taste...

[Arduin]

This is one of those things that should have been more codified in my opinion. I know, it is C&C but this one can be really crazy. I use the HD for monster poisons; like spiders, snakes and any other poisonous creature. That is easy.

.

Easy but not necessarily logical or correct at all. A 1/100th HD jellyfish can have a SUPER lethal poison that kills at a touch.

[Captain_K]

I think they INTENDED to codify it and then we could argue rather or not we like how they codify it.. just like if you ask Arduin what the best weapon of all time is.. well his opinion will vary greatly from say Treebore's and from mine... that would be a fun thread to start

Traveller as much said it was missed and should have been caught.. so after all this it MIGHT get caught and fixed in the "final" PDF for the MT (I think that's what he implied) AND it might get caught in the CKG (but so far nothing on this topic is in there, but could be a short add some place like in the description of ASSASSIN, or high level assassins or even add a profession "poison maker" with the right modifiers (yes I'm shamelessly throwing options at the TROLLS to fix this one sooner than later), BUT there is always Release 7.0 of the PH or the next one in MT... we just have to be patient and house rule until we get there.

Me I'm going with "as the DM decides" with a basic outline of -2 to make per level of poison and any non-Type I through VI poison will be assigned a Type based on its potency (right or wrong).. can always be over ruled with the right luck, the right dead creature or found plant... hey if my PC do some actual research.. more power to them and I'll nurf the rules if it makes sense...

But until that time, happy poisoning... nothing like a silent needle in the night to wake a PC.. or knock them out.

[serleran]

If I can find it, I'll post my chart of effects / costs / level.

[Treebore]

If I can find it, I'll post my chart of effects / costs / level.

This is what I have:

Poison—A Primer
By Robert Doyel

Note: This was written before the finalization of M&T, so things will need to be fixed. Also, any reference to a creature not appearing in M&T needs to be removed, as well.

All poisons are listed by Name, which is the poison's common name; there may be alterations to this name to fit the Castle Keepers needs and wants, to provide for more lively or interesting names. This is followed by its Source, whether Monster, meaning it can be extracted from a creature of the same name; Plant, meaning that it is a naturally growing herb or plant life; Mineral, meaning it is not drawn from a living source, or is a metallic element found naturally; or of a Miscellaneous source, meaning the poison is not one, or is more than one, of the previous listings. Delivery, being the method of poisoning, ranging from Ingestion, meaning an exposed creature must digest the substance; Contact, meaning a victim simply must be in physical touch with the substance; Inhalation, meaning the substance must be breathed to be effective; and Injury, meaning the victim must be struck with a forceful blow, causing immediate entrance of the toxin into the bloodstream. Following this, is the poison's Extraction, which is a modifier on all Dexterity checks to avoid being self-poisoned, save by those characters that possess the Poison Use class ability. Ending the listing is Damage; this rating is typically a range of Hit Points, but may also be attribute damage, Death, or other effects such as Unconsciousness. In all cases, a Constitution save is allowed to resist the effects of the poison, with a difficulty listed (DL); success reduces damaging effects by half. Finally, the Gold Piece cost of a single dosage is recorded.

Aboleth Mucus: Monster, Inhaled, +4, Suffocation 3 hours, DL 8, 5000

Achaierai Black Cloud Vapor: Monster, Contact/Inhaled, +6, Insanity 3 hours, DL 6, 1000

Alcohol (Moderate): Plant, Ingested, --, Intoxication 2d4 hours, DL 1, 1

Alcohol (Severe): Plant, Ingested, --, 1d4+1 Dex/Wis/Int, Unconsciousness (Con save to avoid Death; Con save to avoid Blindness), DL 3, 5

-- Special Rule for Alcohol: Each drink beyond the character's Constitution modifier (or 1 if the character suffers a penalty or has no bonus), results in a -2 penalty on the Constitution save to avoid damaging effects. Dwarves double the number of drinks they may consume before suffering cumulative penalty. Characters which have a penchant for drinking, at the Castle Keepers discretion may also receive the Dwarven benefit, which may apply to a Dwarf, as well, essentially tripling the Dwarven character's Con modifier for this purpose.

Ankheg Acid: Monster, Contact, +4, 1d4, DL 3, 50

Aranea Venom: Monster, Injury, +7, 1d4 Strength, DL 3, 400

Arsenic: Mineral, Ingested, +8, Death, DL 10, 5000

Athach Venom: Monster, Injury, +5, 1d6 Strength, DL 14, 3500

Black Adder Venom: Monster (Animal), Injury, +2, 2d6 for 1 round, DL 4, 100

Black Lotus Extract: Plant, Contact, +8, Death, DL 6, 3500

Bloodroot: Plant, Injury, --, 1d4 Con + 1d3 Wis, DL 3, 750

Caustic Alkali: Mineral, Contact, --, 1d4 for 1 round, DL 1, 15

Chuul Gland Extract: Monster, Contact/Ingested, +7, Paralysis, DL 11, 2500

Couatl Venom: Monster, Injury, +8, Death, DL 9, 7500

Death’s Bloom Poison: Plant, Ingested, +5, 1d6 Wisdom, DL 4, 500

Deathblade: Miscellaneous, Injury, +10, 20 for 2 rounds, DL 10, 4500

Digester Acid: Monster, Contact, +7, 4d8 for 1 round, DL 8, 3750

Dragon Bile: Monster, Contact, +Age*2, Death, DL Age*2, Age*500

Drider Venom: Monster, Injury, +6, Paralysis 1d2 turns, DL 6, 1250

Drow Sleep Poison: Monster/Miscellaneous, Injury, +5, Unconsciousness as Sleep spell, DL 1d6+1, 500.

Ettercap Venom: Monster, Injury, +8, Death, DL 5, 1500

Formian (Myrmarch) Poison: Monster, Injury, +8, 3d4 Strength, 2500

Formian (Taskmaster) Poison: Monster, Injury, +2, 1d4 Strength, DL 6, 400

Formian (Warrior) Poison: Monster, Injury, +2, 1d4 Strength, DL 4, 150

Foxglove (Toxic Dosage): Plant, Ingested, --, 10 for 1 round, DL 5, 50

Giant Anemone Venom: Monster (Animal), Injury, +8, Paralysis 2d6 rounds, DL 6, 300

Giant Ant Acid Extract: Monster (Animal), Contact/Injury, +4, 2d4 for 1 round, DL 4, 175

Giant Bee Poison: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 2d4 for 1d2 rounds, DL 2, 75

Giant Wasp Poison: Monster (Animal), Injury, +4, 5d4 for 1 round, DL 4, 150

Gorgon Breath Vapor: Monster, Inhaled, +12, Petrification (as Flesh to Stone), DL 8, 4000

Hellebore: Plant, Ingested, --, 1d4 Constitution, DL 3, 250

Lich Dust: Monster, Ingested, --, Death, DL 18, 15000

Locoweed: Plant, Ingested, --, Confusion, DL 6, 400

Malyss Root Paste: Plant, Contact, +4, 2d4 Dexterity, DL 6, 550

Medusa Poison: Monster, Contact/Injury, +2, Death, DL 6, 3500

Mohrg Ichor: Monster, Contact, +5, Paralysis, DL 14, 4750

Naga (Dark) Poison: Monster, Injury, +12, Unconsciousness 2d4 min (spellcasters lose spellcasting ability for 1d2 days), DL 9, 6000

Naga (Guardian) Venom: Monster, Contact or Injury, +12, Death (if Contact) or 1d6 (if Injury), DL 11, 7000

Naga (Spirit) Venom: Monster, Injury, +12, 1d3 for 1d6 rounds, DL 9, 6000

Naga (Water) Venom: Monster, Injury, +12, 1d4 for 1 round, DL 7, 4000

Nightcrawler Poison: Monster, Contact/Injury, +12, Death, DL 25, 15000

Opium: Plant, Inhaled, +4, 1d6 Intelligence & Hallucinations, DL 6, 500

Phase Spider Venom: Injury, +5, Death, DL 7, 2500

Poison Ivy: Plant, Contact, --, -1 to Attack, Damage, AC and Ability Checks, DL 3, 125

Pseudodragon Poison: Monster, Injury, +4, Unconsciousness 1d6 days (each day a Con save to avoid Death), DL 2, 2750

Purple Worm Poison: Monster, Injury, +12, Death, DL 15, 7500

Ragweed Pollen: Plant, Inhaled, --, -1 to Attack, Damage, AC and Ability Checks, DL 1, 50

Sassone Leaf Residue: Plant, Contact, +2, 1d6 for 2 rounds. DL 2, 125

Shadow Essence: Monster, Injury, +10, 1 Strength, DL 3, 150

Slithervine Pollen: Plant, Inhaled, --, Blindness, DL 5, 300

Spider Eater Venom: Monster, Injury, +2, Paralysis 1d6 weeks, DL 4, 2000

Striped Toadstool: Plant, Ingested, --, Hallucinations, DL 4, 125

Tendriculos Gastric Fluid: Monster, Contact/Ingested, +6, Paralysis 1d6 rounds, DL 9, 450

Terinav Root: Plant, Contact, --, 2d6 Dexterity, DL 5, 500

Toadstool: Plant, Ingested, --, 1d4 Constitution, DL 3, 500

Vermin Venoms--
Small: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 1d3 for 1d3 rounds, DL 1, 10
Medium: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 2d4 for 1d6 rounds, DL 3, 25
Large: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 2d6 for 2d4 rounds, DL 5, 120

Violet Fungus Poison: Monster/Plant, Contact/Injury, +4, 1d4 Strength/Constitution (Permanent), DL 3, 1200

Viper Venom--
Small: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 1d3 for 1d3 rounds, DL 1, 10
Medium: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 2d4 for 1d6 rounds, DL 3, 25
Large: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 2d6 for 2d4 rounds, DL 5, 120

Wyvern Poison: Monster, Injury, +7, Death, DL 7, 3500

Xill Venom: Monster, Injury, +4, Paralysis 1d4 rounds, DL 5, 1250

The list is not 100% complete, nor are the numbers necessarily accurate. I hope it finds to be somewhat useful, however.

[Treebore]

I also have your 5 page Banes and Balms PDF.

[serleran]

Yeah, thanks for that. I have a new table for poisons made for R&R, when it was being developed. I'll have to see if I can find it...

[Captain_K]

So what is Banes and balms? Can you share?

[serleran]

Banes and Balms was originally something I had considered submitting to The Crusader. Not sure if it ever ended up there or not. But, it was a basic, tabular, guide to herbalism which, when combined with my previous M&T Web Enhancement (because it had a plethora of herb effects), could be useful to those who might want such things...

Link to Download B&B

Link to M&T WE


I have a lot of stuff floating around the aether. Some of it I still have; some of it may be gone forever... or, at least, outside my reach to find again.

[Lurker]

Banes and Balms was originally something I had considered submitting to The Crusader. Not sure if it ever ended up there or not. But, it was a basic, tabular, guide to herbalism which, when combined with my previous M&T Web Enhancement (because it had a plethora of herb effects), could be useful to those who might want such things...

Link to Download B&B

Link to M&T WE


I have a lot of stuff floating around the aether. Some of it I still have; some of it may be gone forever... or, at least, outside my reach to find again.

Thanks for sharing them. I'd forgotten how much I like your ideas on herbalism, poison etc. Good in depth stuff there I like the extra effects -x causes magic users to lose their ability for 1 d4 days etc. Great stuff!

Didn't you have something like it about signs (something like seeing a eagle good luck, but if it was on the left side, the good luck was leaving you?)