Troll Lord Games

What have you folks been using as the accumulative penalties associated with each type of poison to be made? The PH and MT notes they are in there, but they're not. Could it be the Roman numerals that denote the six levels of common poisons are also the negatives associated with these levels?

What have been using/doing to let your assassins, herbalists, and Apothecaries create new and dangerous concoctions?

Poison Harvesting: Is a CL 3 for every Type/rank of the poison to be harvested. So CL 3 for Type 1, maxing out at CL 18 for type 6. These will be the default CL's for successfully distilling them as well. Failed rolls mean you accidentally poison yourself and must make the appropriate saves. Recipe's still give the +10 bonus, but such recipe's can only be made by Assassins or Priests of a god with poisons in their purview. The CL for making such a recipe is 10+2x Poison type/rank, so will range from CL 12 to 22.

Thieves can make Type 1 to type 3 poisons as the Assassin, after that they can still make Type 4 and stronger poisons, but no longer add their level, but can use recipes to aid them. Thieves do need to make DEX checks to apply poisons to weapons, etc...

The poisons in my game are concocted exactly as described in the recent printing of the M&T (appendix B). In addition to the INT check to make the poison, an additional CL is added for each Poison Classification I-VI. I also use very mild poisons in my game that are essentially, poison class 0. That poison classification level is added to the overall CC to concoct each poison. The named poisons listed in that section, have an additional CL of 1 (probably shoudl be even more, like 3) added to the overall difficulty to produce because the named ones are, in my estimation more powerful than the generic poison classification table.

~O

Omote wrote:The poisons in my game are concocted exactly as described in the recent printing of the M&T (appendix B). In addition to the INT check to make the poison, an additional CL is added for each Poison Classification I-VI.
~O

This is also how I play it.

Omote wrote: In addition to the INT check to make the poison, an additional CL is added for each Poison Classification I-VI.
~O

I see no such thing. Meaning in the book. I also find it curious that tables are mentioned "below" for additional modifiers, but there is no table giving such things. Unless they somehow meant the "Special Poisons", but that doesn't make any sense to me. To Trolls, it may very well make sense, but not to me.

This is what I noted first to Traveller than at his request one of the Trolls to try to catch the PDF version edits: Poison, Page 175 of MT, "This intelligence check is modified by one’s attribute modifier, but not level, except in the case of an assassin. Further, the check is adjusted by cumulative penalties indicated in the parentheses in the tables below. Success indicates the poison is concocted successfully."

There are no tables below, strictly speaking, just a running list of special poisons and the list of the table above "types" I to VI. There are no "penalties indicated in the parentheses". There are no parentheses. Are we to assume that type I is a -1 and Type V is a negative V and if you make a poison that is both combined it would have a V + I or SIX penalty to make? Its just not clear..

So I'm hearing from you esteemed CKs us the Type values I through VI as the negative to the creation roll at a value of one for each classification level up or per Tree up to three per classification level. Thus making the top level poison expensive to make in $ and hard to make...

Assassin's never poison themselves using the stuff, I would think they would not making the stuff either, they simply fail to make it or its less powerful or some such.

Thoughts? I'm really just going to put a negative on the roll based on level or damage or some such for all poisons, using the Class I through VI as a good guide for the specials.

to my second question right in the description it says, "success is you make it.".. It does not hint failure is self poisoning, it would imply you don't make it.

I know only assassins are the only ones to add levels, but a specialist like an herbalist or an apothecary may not have levels either or they may have a few simple "rankings" in their profession: Journeyman, master, master of the guild or some such so that they get some sort of "I've been doing this 30 years, I'm pretty good at it." But as far as PCs are concerned, only Assassins makes sense.. possibly a +1 to characters with the right "skills" or back story when dealing with a poison type they may have a set of skills to make. Like a Druid making a brew of toxic mushrooms.. knows the plants, knows how to handle and knows their toxicity... great poison.. but not an assassin..

Captain_K wrote:to my second question right in the description it says, "success is you make it.".. It does not hint failure is self poisoning, it would imply you don't make it.

I know only assassins are the only ones to add levels, but a specialist like an herbalist or an apothecary may not have levels either or they may have a few simple "rankings" in their profession: Journeyman, master, master of the guild or some such so that they get some sort of "I've been doing this 30 years, I'm pretty good at it." But as far as PCs are concerned, only Assassins makes sense.. possibly a +1 to characters with the right "skills" or back story when dealing with a poison type they may have a set of skills to make. Like a Druid making a brew of toxic mushrooms.. knows the plants, knows how to handle and knows their toxicity... great poison.. but not an assassin..

Well, this is C&C, not some RPG manual with all the answers for every situation. So make a ruling. For non-levelled NPC's give them a straight bonus that you think is reasonable for the back ground of that NPC. For the Druid, maybe allow them to add half their level. Plus WIS modifier, and maybe an extra +2 for their woodlands knowledge. Bottom line is, be reasonable, which includes trying not to diminish/remove one of the Assassins main abilities. I mean, look above, at what I did with the Thief. Sure, he steps on a few small toes of the Assassin, but in the end, the Assassin is clearly the best poison maker and user.

Captain_K wrote:to my second question right in the description it says, "success is you make it.".. It does not hint failure is self poisoning, it would imply you don't make it.

Right. Like failing to make a potion doesn't mean that the Caster accidentally drank it... What's your question?

Captain_K wrote:I know only assassins are the only ones to add levels, but a specialist like an herbalist or an apothecary may not have levels either or they may have a few simple "rankings" in their profession:

In C&C, Class levels are class levels and use the Siege Engine rules for checks. Again, what is the rule question? The RAW is REALLY clear in this area.

Arduin wrote:

Captain_K wrote:to my second question right in the description it says, "success is you make it.".. It does not hint failure is self poisoning, it would imply you don't make it.

Right. Like failing to make a potion doesn't mean that the Caster accidentally drank it... What's your question?

Captain_K wrote:I know only assassins are the only ones to add levels, but a specialist like an herbalist or an apothecary may not have levels either or they may have a few simple "rankings" in their profession:

In C&C, Class levels are class levels and use the Siege Engine rules for checks. Again, what is the rule question? The RAW is REALLY clear in this area.

True, but this is still C&C, and individual CK rulings are not only allowed, but encouraged. So refer to my post above your last.

Treebore wrote:
True, but this is still C&C, and individual CK rulings are not only allowed, but encouraged. So refer to my post above your last.

Oh, he was asking for us to make house rules for his game. I didn't realize that.

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:
True, but this is still C&C, and individual CK rulings are not only allowed, but encouraged. So refer to my post above your last.

Oh, he was asking for us to make house rules for his game. I didn't realize that.

Yeah, he knows what the rules say, he was asking about things the rules don't say.

Guys, I started pointing out the book ACTUALLY says there are noted penalties that I, nor anyone, can find.... knowing your greater history in the game I thought you would have house rules or possibly even chatted with the TROLLS and know what they intended to put in there....

I like the range from one to three negatives per "Type"... good range, good rules. I like the various points of view you all have and I like the use of your thief getting some and such... I did not agree with the poison yourself if you failed from Tree though, so I pointed that out, just not too clearly, sorry.

I know how the levels come in and the SEIGE. That said, in my house rules, I blend things a bit for professionals who are not classes. Unless I want to make my "little old man in the back room selling illicit drugs and poisons" a leveled assassin.. I can house rule that, just like the thief and the Druid, he gets some slight bonus, just not as good as the assassin (agree fully they are the masters).. logic is logic. I appreciate each of you sharing how YOU do it, that for me is great info. I can do it on my own, but the point of the boards to me is to share ideas and stuff.

I like your opinions, I like your input, and when I say "esteemed" I mean it, its not a slight, so sorry if that typed as snotty on my end. I know we all have bad days and Christmas Music will make anyone snappy.

Thanks again for the good input, fun discourse and verbal sparring, but you better watch out, if Santa is monitoring the posts, some of you might be getting coal instead of CnC books ;}

Captain_K wrote:I did not agree with the poison yourself if you failed from Tree though, so I pointed that out, just not too clearly, sorry.

Its very possible I put that in there from 1E AD&D.

I know the PH specifically says, "Assassins never poison themselves when applying poison to a blade."... but I would broaden that to or club, or food or arrow nor when making or handling viles and such with really rare or special circumstances. Keeping them THE masters of the Poisoning arts from all angles.. just my two cents.

Captain_K wrote:I know the PH specifically says, "Assassins never poison themselves when applying poison to a blade."... but I would broaden that to or club, or food or arrow nor when making or handling viles and such with really rare or special circumstances. Keeping them THE masters of the Poisoning arts from all angles.. just my two cents.

I just don't like the idea of being perfect all of the time. Even the best experts make mistakes.

I use my own system. When it matters.

It never does.

My reply to Captain K was that a negative modifier equal to the poison class would work fine. Thus a type VI poison would have a -6, while a combination type IV/V poison would have a -9. The problem here stems from the fact that the text mentions modifiers being present in the table below, and the only table below has no modifiers. Something easily missed, as I also pointed out to the Captain, since all the Kickstarter backers along with myself got a look at the PDF before it was sent to the printers, and none of us noticed it. Worse is that I didn't notice the same error in the PHB.

So, that is what's going on. While I understand Captain K's desire to have the modifiers spelled out as they were supposed to be, waiting on an official word rather than house ruling to keep the game moving isn't good either, as his players may sense his indecision. The solution I've provided is simple, but by no means official. It's ultimately up to him whether to use it or not.

*Gets my butt back to editing, as I fell behind schedule.*

I don't change the CL based on the poison type. The type establishes the effect, but the CL is determined by the skill of the poisoner. Note also that in the CKG under Traps you'll find the CLs of the poisons don't correlate with the poison types.

I don't think it's a bad idea to modify the CLs. Poison is nasty. But it was never my reading of the rules that this was how it was done.

Eh, I just came up with something off the cuff. It's entirely possible that the modifiers were not intended to be in the table and thus mention of them should have been removed. I just don't know what the Trolls intended here, and honestly, I'm not worrying too much about it.

Traveller wrote:Eh, I just came up with something off the cuff. It's entirely possible that the modifiers were not intended to be in the table and thus mention of them should have been removed. I just don't know what the Trolls intended here, and honestly, I'm not worrying too much about it.

Indeed, this is the way of optimal satisfaction with C&C.

Aergraith wrote:I don't change the CL based on the poison type. The type establishes the effect, but the CL is determined by the skill of the poisoner. Note also that in the CKG under Traps you'll find the CLs of the poisons don't correlate with the poison types.

I don't think it's a bad idea to modify the CLs. Poison is nasty. But it was never my reading of the rules that this was how it was done.

My CL's above are for the MAKING of the poisons. As for saves, I do it the way the rules say to, its the HD/level of the poison maker, or if that is undetermined, the HD of the user. Basic SIEGE Engine rule mechanics. I usually determine the level of the poison maker based on what I think is a reasonable level for them to be to have made the poison using my CL guidelines above. So for category 6 poison, they will be level 10 or above, so the save CL will be a 10 or higher.

Treebore wrote: My CL's above are for the MAKING of the poisons.

Makes sense to me.

Aergraith wrote:

Treebore wrote: My CL's above are for the MAKING of the poisons.

Makes sense to me.

That is what I go for. Sensible.

Sensible is too easy.

Hardcore elusive allusion... that's the tricky gambit.

serleran wrote:Sensible is too easy.

Hardcore elusive allusion... that's the tricky gambit.

Hurts my brain just trying to think that way!

I've made my decisions on how I want to play this, but as of yet have not had to implement anything yet... I personally like the negative (to make a poison) that increases for increasingly more dangerous poisons. I understand that some poisons are more deadly than others naturally and may not be hard to make... but as a gaming rule I like the sliding scale idea. But for thieves or assassins or ranger's setting a simple trap it seems like the trap should not be affected by the level of the guy setting the mechanism and the same seems like it would work for poisoning someone... a simple low power poison has X or Y affect and you have a negative to save from said affects based on the level of the poisoner??? how much better can a 20th level assassin put poison in my wine over a 1st level??? Its in there or its not.. I can see level playing a roll sometimes but not always... still noodling that one a bit, but the rules for that are pretty clear... just not sure I always agree with them... but as noted above, play on.

Great input from all, thanks again... I'm sure Traveller and the Trolls won't miss this one again or will find a way to slip a note into the CKG... or some such.. or give us their two cents here.. its Christmas and Santa.. I want a nice answer in my stocking please.

I'd be inclined to narrate the whole thing with the player somehow rather than using rules which, to me anyway, seem to be pure gamism to the extent that you can't really describe what is going on except in terms of players rolling dice.
PC Assassin: So, Baron Godefroy de Hapless-Victim loves mushrooms. I'm going to the woods to try and find some Death Cap or Destroying Angel for the banquet tomorrow and then... I'll somehow have to sneak into the kitchen...
CK: That's going to cost you 200-1000gp.
It doesn't make much sense that all poisons have to be fiendish concoctions brewed up amidst bottles full of bubbling liquid.

I fully agree. The world is full of dangerous things, poison is one of natures common plans of attack and defense for insects, reptiles, plants, fungi even an almost mammal has poison (platypus) Magic swords are hard to make but found often enough.. Poison is some place in between. Everywhere you look if you care to look or serious science in the lab if that is your method.. either way, the game tries to balance out a "kills you instantly unless you save" for the sake of the game... its all balance and play...

Sure, a FEW poisons are toxic enough on their own to kill you, somewhat slowly, but if you want the instant death poisons, almost all of them need to be what amounts to distilled down into a purer, far more potent, poison. Especially in a world where there are spells, potions, and likely other means to counter a poison before it kills you.

Remember, even the Romans needed to have Doctors create the poison that was put into wells of cities to kill off the entire populations. (Which is one of the many reasons the Romans were so hated.)