Troll Lord Games

In reading through a module it notes to have one of the NPCs break a leg... that NPC seems to then become the camp cleaner of all things dirty and is forced to move about at half speed.. the Cleric in the group I would assume would say, "Hey, Let me fix that, I'm the healing guy!"... so what would you all rule, simply enough h.p. of basic healing or something special? Surely Heal or Regenerate are powerful enough.. seems to me around a 3rd lvl spell is about right since they are specialized to fix blindness, deafness, and disease... so possibly the "simple healing" must be Serious Wound or higher.

Thoughts on how to hand various specifically described breaks, cracks, gashes, crushes, etc. that come about from specific point described injuries outside the basic "damage" was taken?

Hit point damage is generally not even an actual wound until it gets under your first hit die, depending on how you run such things. I would say a broken bone is a separate effect from hit point damage, which would be acquired in the same way as any other effect, for instance, disease as you note. It could also be the result of negative hit points (if you so rule it, see CKG 275), critical damage, or massive crushing damage.

Breaking bones is not recommended in the PHB:

"In general, it is not wise to break bones, lop off limbs or inflict significant organ damage, as healing times for these types of wounds are significant and complete recovery often impossible"

Even falling damage doesn't necessarily break bones, so it's really just a special effect.

But it's not a disease, and the rules have a spell to fix broken bones. It's a seventh level spell, Regenerate.

In the CKG, a fractured limb from Massive Crushing Damage can be healed with Lesser Restoration. A shattered limb requires Heal or Regenerate. (Under the alternative damage system, Wounds.)

Captain_K wrote:In reading through a module it notes to have one of the NPCs break a leg... that NPC seems to then become the camp cleaner of all things dirty and is forced to move about at half speed.. the Cleric in the group I would assume would say, "Hey, Let me fix that, I'm the healing guy!"... so what would you all rule, simply enough h.p.

An age old question. As Aergraith mentioned, until you start eating into your base hit die there is no real damage to speak of. I have always ruled that stuff like broken bones must be that base hp. So, the broken leg is obviously worth less than the NPC's full base (1st level h.p.) or he'd be dead. Certainly going negative HP in battle is going to mean something is probably broken. You might want to separate simple fractures from a compound fracture. If the bones are set, Cure spell can handle. If not able to be set, Regenerate is needed.

A broken leg is an inconvenience in a world with many magic-users and clerics; in a setting with low magic, it is potentially life threatening.

So, you have to decide yourself. The book, apparently, makes its own assumption but it is but one of the countless available.

After all, a broken leg to a gelatinous cube is nothing but lunch.

Hit points are about stamina, fatigue, bruises, and bumps more-so than actual gaping wounds or lopped off body parts. Something like Cure Light Wounds or a healing potion heals those sorts of things with no problem. A broken bone is actually pretty serious and is not addressed with a simple cure light spell. As Aergraith said, a fractured limb from Massive Crushing Damage can be healed with Lesser Restoration. A shattered limb requires Heal or Regenerate.

Now, having said that... those are my rules for PCs. For an NPC... I would rule it as the story requires. For example, if it changes the opinion of townfolk toward the PCs because they help the NPC heal a nasty break, then I let the cure light wounds go a long way to making the NPC a useful member of the population again. IF they need the NPC to live because he has some important information, then the heal spell might not totally cure the broken bone, but it will ensure that infection doesn't set in so that the NPC lives to tell the PCs the information.

Also note that the job of the cleric as a PC isn't to travel around and heal the people of the world... they usually have more pressing matters. But sometimes it comes in handy and the cleric can use his skills to help out a village.

DMSamuel wrote:For an NPC... I would rule it as the story requires.

As a CK, I reserve the right to make exceptional things in the world that don't behave according to the rules the PCs follow. This could be anything from broken legs to different kinds of magic that aren't spells, to doors that can't be opened, whatever is needed. Sometimes you have to dissuade the PCs from nitpicking the scenery and encourage them to accept and move on.

Aergraith wrote:

DMSamuel wrote:For an NPC... I would rule it as the story requires.

As a CK, I reserve the right to make exceptional things in the world that don't behave according to the rules the PCs follow. This could be anything from broken legs to different kinds of magic that aren't spells, to doors that can't be opened, whatever is needed. Sometimes you have to dissuade the PCs from nitpicking the scenery and encourage them to accept and move on.

Absolutely - agree 100% That's exactly how I run my games.

Aergraith wrote:Hit point damage is generally not even an actual wound until it gets under your first hit die, depending on how you run such things. ...

I'd never heard that, but I like it! Nice simple straight forward. Considered it added to my home brew rules!

Lurker wrote:

Aergraith wrote:Hit point damage is generally not even an actual wound until it gets under your first hit die, depending on how you run such things. ...

I'd never heard that, but I like it! Nice simple straight forward. Considered it added to my home brew rules!

In C&C, HP are an "abstraction" for us, the CK, to describe however we wish to. Exhaustion, bruising, small cuts, etc... So to further clarify that into specifically saying serious injury doesn't occur until your reduced to your Level 1 HD/HP isn't that much of a stretch. I'd call it more of a clarification than a "rule".

This is in my House Rules Document, located in the online gaming forum, first page of my game thread:

"I should also note that I define Hit Points as per the 1E DMG and PH. HP are not all just physical damage as C&C defines it. The vast majority of HP are a combination of Luck and stamina, and the loss of HP is mostly the abstract loss of that luck and Stamina due to stress and the dodging of blows and spells. So even when a Magic Missile hits you, its not necessarily hitting you, but presenting enough of a danger to cause you to lose that much of your HP. If it is ever important, your actual, physical, hit points are those you roll for first level + Con bonus +1 per level there after. After first level your Con modifier represents additional, or less, Stamina."

Treebore wrote:So to further clarify that into specifically saying serious injury doesn't occur until your reduced to your Level 1 HD/HP isn't that much of a stretch. I'd call it more of a clarification than a "rule".

And, logic

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:So to further clarify that into specifically saying serious injury doesn't occur until your reduced to your Level 1 HD/HP isn't that much of a stretch. I'd call it more of a clarification than a "rule".

And, logic

Treebore wrote:This is in my House Rules Document, located in the online gaming forum, first page of my game thread:

"I should also note that I define Hit Points as per the 1E DMG and PH. HP are not all just physical damage as C&C defines it. The vast majority of HP are a combination of Luck and stamina, and the loss of HP is mostly the abstract loss of that luck and Stamina due to stress and the dodging of blows and spells. So even when a Magic Missile hits you, its not necessarily hitting you, but presenting enough of a danger to cause you to lose that much of your HP. If it is ever important, your actual, physical, hit points are those you roll for first level + Con bonus +1 per level there after. After first level your Con modifier represents additional, or less, Stamina."

I always knew the HPs were abstract representation of luck stamina etc etc etc. I (which is surprising for as long ago as I started playing) never heard the idea of only the '1st HD/hp' being actual physical damage.

Consider it (tree's rule) yanked and added to my home brew !

One of The Big Guy's Modules "Giant's Rapture" basically forces an NPC to have his leg broken... I know my PCs will try to heal him.. a Cleric of a Healing God I assume will run about healing any and ALL its in his mission, not just the PCs... in fact I would argue the PCs are the last he will heal over NPC (towns folks) as their pain is life threatening and per the above the PCs is far from it... Thanks for the input, I'll rule some of it is hp damage and full recovery in time or higher magic.. broken bone healing needing regeneration seems kind of steep.. its not growing a limb back.. the spell specifically calls out broken bones.. but it seems you can raise the DEAD at 5th lvl spell and cure total blindness as third... I rather LOOSE a leg than loose eye sight... seems sight restoration third level, broken wrist 7th level, two levels after bringing someone back from the dead... just not logical... (I know its magic... and logic need not apply).. I just suffered a broken hand and am still dealing with slow healing for nearly 9 months... but it was not totally debilitating... and advil and a brace were the only magic I had...

Thoughts?

I can't remember where I first heard of the "last hit die" theory, but maybe it was Philotomy's Musings. (http://grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf). It makes even more sense there, because in 3LBB OD&D, everyone's hit die was a d6, and every weapon did d6 damage, so those first 1-6 hp were truly the lethal zone in melee.

AD&D PHB says the same thing, just doesn't quantify it as tightly:
"A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors."

Captain_K wrote:
... broken bone healing needing regeneration seems kind of steep.. its not growing a limb back.. the spell specifically calls out broken bones.. but it seems you can raise the DEAD at 5th lvl spell and cure total blindness as third... I rather LOOSE a leg than loose eye sight... seems sight restoration third level, broken wrist 7th level, two levels after bringing someone back from the dead... just not logical... (I know its magic... and logic need not apply).. ....

Thoughts?

Well, as I've said before, magic is my weakness. But, I do agree with the logical argument CSW would have enough umph to cure a broken bone. That or morph remove blindness/disease/curse (all of which are 3rd level)into a mend bone type spell.

Aergraith wrote:I can't remember where I first heard of the "last hit die" theory,

The basic idea about how much of the HP represents ability to take REAL damage is from AD&D 1st Ed where Gary talks about the absurd notion that a 4th level fighter can take a much real damage as it would take to kill a horse or something like that. He goes on from there...

Read about HP in the 1E DMG. Like I posted above, it is what inspired my "House Rule". Page 82, left hand column, under "Hit Points". Gary didn't explicitly spell it out, but his wording inspired my House Rule pretty much directly. In particular after first level.

As for healing broken bones, I figure once someone's HP is fully restored, any and all wounds, aside from loss of body parts, is healed.

Originally I would have thought.. "broken leg" is a descriptor for damage and any h.p. healing would just mend that, nothing fancy.. but acid to the eyes that blinds the character requires a special spell to get vision back not just hp recovery.. so I assume since it was The Big Guy's module he had something special in mind for "healing the broken leg" of the NPC... I'm going to go with the CSW does the leg &/or some special prayer or rite by the Cleric equivalent to a 3rd lvl spell.. all the others are there and I like the idea of a "Mend Bones/Fix The Plumbing" kind of 3rd lvl spell.

Captain_K wrote:Originally I would have thought.. "broken leg" is a descriptor for damage and any h.p. healing would just mend that, nothing fancy.. but acid to the eyes that blinds the character requires a special spell to get vision back not just hp recovery.. so I assume since it was The Big Guy's module he had something special in mind for "healing the broken leg" of the NPC... I'm going to go with the CSW does the leg &/or some special prayer or rite by the Cleric equivalent to a 3rd lvl spell.. all the others are there and I like the idea of a "Mend Bones/Fix The Plumbing" kind of 3rd lvl spell.

My take on it is that he had a broken leg that healed while not set. You either have to expertly rebreak and use cure spell or requires regenerate spell.

Arduin wrote:

Captain_K wrote:Originally I would have thought.. "broken leg" is a descriptor for damage and any h.p. healing would just mend that, nothing fancy.. but acid to the eyes that blinds the character requires a special spell to get vision back not just hp recovery.. so I assume since it was The Big Guy's module he had something special in mind for "healing the broken leg" of the NPC... I'm going to go with the CSW does the leg &/or some special prayer or rite by the Cleric equivalent to a 3rd lvl spell.. all the others are there and I like the idea of a "Mend Bones/Fix The Plumbing" kind of 3rd lvl spell.

My take on it is that he had a broken leg that healed while not set. You either have to expertly rebreak and use cure spell or requires regenerate spell.

To be a little evil (and to keep the cleric from being toooooo powerful) I could see needing one "mend bones/fix the Plumbing" to fix those issues, and then a normal 'cure wound' spell for the HP damage.

I don't know the module, but with the 'previously broken, not properly set, and allowed to heal poorly' scenario, I'd agree it would need a re-break and proper healing or a full up regenerate.

I assume the poor drover will break it, scream, we'll all know about it. The Clerics will at least set the thing, do enough healing that he's out of pain.. then after that I'll challenge them to see what they do for the poor "working man"... should be fun, thanks for the advice.. also a chance for my Cleric or Druid to "create" a new spell... also kind of fun