M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Snoring Rock »

I was so excited to receive my new M&T. The color is fantastic and the editing to remove the 3.5-isms was good too. But alas, my joy was short-lived. On page 136 are tables 4.4B and 4.4D; random armor and shield types. The experience rewards and prices are missing from both tables. What a disappointment.

Before anyone makes the suggestion of going back and referencing the old M&T when I need that information, please remember that I spent money for this book. It should contain the information. While the editing has improved, the proof-reading for this kind of thing remains the same.

Does anyone know; am I the only one to notice this? Was it just a few or was the entire run of books printed with the missing information? I assume I am stuck with it.

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by serleran »

I would be bothered if I purchased a product and portions are missing, especially when such is said to be important and "critical" to use.

I have not actually looked at a M&T for quite some time, so no idea if the latest is thus affected universally. But... I am sure you could ask the Trolls to replace it. They probably won't even respond with "send that one back." Consider it a printing error. They happen -- even by the big boys.

At least the book is "complete." I mean, you could have a copy of Lords of Creation like I have where it was cut 1/4" too short (at the manufacturer), rendering every page of the rules interesting via substitution and allegation.

User avatar
mmbutter
Red Cap
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:28 pm

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by mmbutter »

For table 4.4B, you can't determine the values until you've rolled on both tables 4.4A & 4.4B.

For table 4.4D, the note at the bottom specifies that the values are based on the level of "pluses" the item has.

Basically, I don't think either of these tables should have those values and are correct as displayed.

User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Snoring Rock »

mmbutter wrote:For table 4.4B, you can't determine the values until you've rolled on both tables 4.4A & 4.4B.

For table 4.4D, the note at the bottom specifies that the values are based on the level of "pluses" the item has.

Basically, I don't think either of these tables should have those values and are correct as displayed.
NO. Why are they on the tables in the last printing and the printing before that then? You take the base value that should be in these tables and then add them to the "pluses" as you state. The tables are incomplete. See the previous versions.

User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Snoring Rock »

serleran wrote:I would be bothered if I purchased a product and portions are missing, especially when such is said to be important and "critical" to use.

I have not actually looked at a M&T for quite some time, so no idea if the latest is thus affected universally. But... I am sure you could ask the Trolls to replace it. They probably won't even respond with "send that one back." Consider it a printing error. They happen -- even by the big boys.

At least the book is "complete." I mean, you could have a copy of Lords of Creation like I have where it was cut 1/4" too short (at the manufacturer), rendering every page of the rules interesting via substitution and allegation.
I think mine is not the only one. Go check the PDF. The mistake was there too. It appears this is a universal screw up.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Arduin »

Snoring Rock wrote:I was so excited to receive my new M&T. The color is fantastic and the editing to remove the 3.5-isms was good too. But alas, my joy was short-lived. On page 136 are tables 4.4B and 4.4D; random armor and shield types. The experience rewards and prices are missing from both tables. What a disappointment.
That because, "* The value is based off the bonus of the item. Consult Table 4.4E:
Armor Bonus for approximate gold piece and experience point values.
"

The tables are correct
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

alcyone
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
Location: The Court of the Crimson King

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by alcyone »

Traveller changed/fixed the treasure generation tables in 6th printing. They are different from the last printing intentionally.

However, with stuff like Plate Armor of the Deep or Animated Shield for instance, those used to have gp and exp values that did not simply correspond to the pluses on them, as they have special properties. I guess they have been simplified.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com

User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Snoring Rock »

Arduin wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:I was so excited to receive my new M&T. The color is fantastic and the editing to remove the 3.5-isms was good too. But alas, my joy was short-lived. On page 136 are tables 4.4B and 4.4D; random armor and shield types. The experience rewards and prices are missing from both tables. What a disappointment.
That because, "* The value is based off the bonus of the item. Consult Table 4.4E:
Armor Bonus for approximate gold piece and experience point values.
"

The tables are correct
What you are saying is that a blinding shield, that has no bonus cost how much and gives how much experience? Or a Lion's shield, which has a +2 bonus prescription on page 144 then, costs 4,000gp and gives 750 experience points? So it would be the same as a plain +2 shield. Do I have that right?

If I am wrong, please explain.

User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Snoring Rock »

Aergraith wrote:Traveller changed/fixed the treasure generation tables in 6th printing. They are different from the last printing intentionally.

However, with stuff like Plate Armor of the Deep or Animated Shield for instance, those used to have gp and exp values that did not simply correspond to the pluses on them, as they have special properties. I guess they have been simplified.
I see where it used to be a single table and was split into two tables. That makes sense. So How much would a Lion's Shield from page 144 cost and how much exp?

User avatar
Rigon
Clang lives!
Posts: 7202
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Rigon »

I think that info got snipped by mistake. You can always look at older printings for the info, but it really should be in the current printing.

R-
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads
Monday Night Online Group Member since 2007

User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Snoring Rock »

TABLE 4.4B: RANDOM SHIELD TYPE*
d% Type
01-40 Animated Shield
41-70 Bashing Shield**
71-90 Blinding Shield
91-00 Lion’s Shield
*Roll on Table 4.4B to determine the shield found, then roll on Table
4.4A: Shield to determine the shield’s size, ignoring results of 00.
**The pavis cannot be used to bash due to weight. If the shield type
is determined to be a pavis, reroll.

From the book....

Where does it say to roll on 4.4E?

alcyone
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
Location: The Court of the Crimson King

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by alcyone »

Snoring Rock wrote:
Aergraith wrote:Traveller changed/fixed the treasure generation tables in 6th printing. They are different from the last printing intentionally.

However, with stuff like Plate Armor of the Deep or Animated Shield for instance, those used to have gp and exp values that did not simply correspond to the pluses on them, as they have special properties. I guess they have been simplified.
I see where it used to be a single table and was split into two tables. That makes sense. So How much would a Lion's Shield from page 144 cost and how much exp?
I think you're right, Snoring Rock.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com

User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Snoring Rock »

Rigon wrote:I think that info got snipped by mistake. You can always look at older printings for the info, but it really should be in the current printing.

R-
Thank you. I believe the same thing.

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Treebore »

I'm starting to think the Trolls intentionally input errors so that their overly anal fans will be compelled to buy yet another printing that addresses all the errata.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Arduin »

Snoring Rock wrote: What you are saying is that a blinding shield, that has no bonus cost how much and gives how much experience? Or a Lion's shield, which has a +2 bonus prescription on page 144 then, costs 4,000gp and gives 750 experience points? So it would be the same as a plain +2 shield. Do I have that right?
What I am saying? You have confused me with the author of the rule books. You REALLY think that I made the rules???
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Rigon
Clang lives!
Posts: 7202
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Rigon »

Arduin wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote: What you are saying is that a blinding shield, that has no bonus cost how much and gives how much experience? Or a Lion's shield, which has a +2 bonus prescription on page 144 then, costs 4,000gp and gives 750 experience points? So it would be the same as a plain +2 shield. Do I have that right?
What I am saying? You have confused me with the author of the rule books. You REALLY think that I made the rules???
You did, however, say the charts were correct. They clearly are missing info that was provided in earlier printings. That makes them incorrect.

Snorry, I'd just use the info from an earlier printing, if you have access to one, for the missing info.

R-
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads
Monday Night Online Group Member since 2007

alcyone
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
Location: The Court of the Crimson King

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by alcyone »

Well, a lot of us looked at those tables before the M&T went to print. I think without actually trying to generate treasure with them, it's easy to miss. As for why something changed, I guess it had to do with other improvements to the process or the layout and just got missed.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com

User avatar
Rigon
Clang lives!
Posts: 7202
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Rigon »

Aergraith wrote:Well, a lot of us looked at those tables before the M&T went to print. I think without actually trying to generate treasure with them, it's easy to miss. As for why something changed, I guess it had to do with other improvements to the process or the layout and just got missed.
Yeah, I'm not complaining or anything. Heck, I even missed it until Snorry pointed it out. And really, it's not a breaker, I can just use the info from an earlier printing. But for a someone coming to the game new, I can see where that would cause some confusion.

R-
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads
Monday Night Online Group Member since 2007

User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Snoring Rock »

Treebore wrote:I'm starting to think the Trolls intentionally input errors so that their overly anal fans will be compelled to buy yet another printing that addresses all the errata.
Hmmm...are you saying I am anal? This is the last printing I pay money for.

Seriously though, I was not even looking. I had a player slay a black dragon and wanted to take the hide back to town to have it crafted into something special. So I figured a shield that gave resistance to acid and maybe a +2 protection after being imbued with magic would be acceptable. I wanted to find a cost to quote the player and looked this us and shazam....the cost and experience were missing.

Had I just found it, that is one thing. I may have just sighed and moved on. But it was in-game and I was looking to get answers from reference book...but the book has a editing errors of omission. Frustrating. This one was supposed to have been correct. I trusted.

User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Snoring Rock »

Rigon wrote:
Aergraith wrote:Well, a lot of us looked at those tables before the M&T went to print. I think without actually trying to generate treasure with them, it's easy to miss. As for why something changed, I guess it had to do with other improvements to the process or the layout and just got missed.
Yeah, I'm not complaining or anything. Heck, I even missed it until Snorry pointed it out. And really, it's not a breaker, I can just use the info from an earlier printing. But for a someone coming to the game new, I can see where that would cause some confusion.

R-
THAT is the biggest thing to me. If I was new, I have to guess at it. It does leave a new CK lost on that, wondering....

I have the older books. So in order to get this information, I must go reference another book for that tidbit. And yes, there were a few of us that looked at it and still missed it. How the heck did that get dropped?

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Treebore »

Snoring Rock wrote:
Treebore wrote:I'm starting to think the Trolls intentionally input errors so that their overly anal fans will be compelled to buy yet another printing that addresses all the errata.
Hmmm...are you saying I am anal? This is the last printing I pay money for.

Seriously though, I was not even looking. I had a player slay a black dragon and wanted to take the hide back to town to have it crafted into something special. So I figured a shield that gave resistance to acid and maybe a +2 protection after being imbued with magic would be acceptable. I wanted to find a cost to quote the player and looked this us and shazam....the cost and experience were missing.

Had I just found it, that is one thing. I may have just sighed and moved on. But it was in-game and I was looking to get answers from reference book...but the book has a editing errors of omission. Frustrating. This one was supposed to have been correct. I trusted.
Your talking to the guy with 25+ copies of the PH and just shy of 10 copies of the M&T... 5 of which are the new PHB, and 2 of which are the new M&T, so yeah, I am irritated. Plus I am one of the "anal" ones... My dream is perfectly done printings of the PHB and the M&T. Just from now on, I am no longer buying new printings, until a new printing goes a year without having errors found. Which means I will never be buying new printings ever again, because we all know the Trolls will never achieve such perfection.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Buttmonkey
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2031
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:00 am

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Buttmonkey »

Treebore wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:
Treebore wrote:I'm starting to think the Trolls intentionally input errors so that their overly anal fans will be compelled to buy yet another printing that addresses all the errata.
Hmmm...are you saying I am anal? This is the last printing I pay money for.

Seriously though, I was not even looking. I had a player slay a black dragon and wanted to take the hide back to town to have it crafted into something special. So I figured a shield that gave resistance to acid and maybe a +2 protection after being imbued with magic would be acceptable. I wanted to find a cost to quote the player and looked this us and shazam....the cost and experience were missing.

Had I just found it, that is one thing. I may have just sighed and moved on. But it was in-game and I was looking to get answers from reference book...but the book has a editing errors of omission. Frustrating. This one was supposed to have been correct. I trusted.
Your talking to the guy with 25+ copies of the PH and just shy of 10 copies of the M&T... 5 of which are the new PHB, and 2 of which are the new M&T, so yeah, I am irritated. Plus I am one of the "anal" ones... My dream is perfectly done printings of the PHB and the M&T. Just from now on, I am no longer buying new printings, until a new printing goes a year without having errors found. Which means I will never be buying new printings ever again, because we all know the Trolls will never achieve such perfection.
Nor can anyone else. An error-free core RPG book is a non-existent mythical beast.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by serleran »

Buttmonkey wrote:
Treebore wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:
Treebore wrote:I'm starting to think the Trolls intentionally input errors so that their overly anal fans will be compelled to buy yet another printing that addresses all the errata.
Hmmm...are you saying I am anal? This is the last printing I pay money for.

Seriously though, I was not even looking. I had a player slay a black dragon and wanted to take the hide back to town to have it crafted into something special. So I figured a shield that gave resistance to acid and maybe a +2 protection after being imbued with magic would be acceptable. I wanted to find a cost to quote the player and looked this us and shazam....the cost and experience were missing.

Had I just found it, that is one thing. I may have just sighed and moved on. But it was in-game and I was looking to get answers from reference book...but the book has a editing errors of omission. Frustrating. This one was supposed to have been correct. I trusted.
Your talking to the guy with 25+ copies of the PH and just shy of 10 copies of the M&T... 5 of which are the new PHB, and 2 of which are the new M&T, so yeah, I am irritated. Plus I am one of the "anal" ones... My dream is perfectly done printings of the PHB and the M&T. Just from now on, I am no longer buying new printings, until a new printing goes a year without having errors found. Which means I will never be buying new printings ever again, because we all know the Trolls will never achieve such perfection.
Nor can anyone else. An error-free core RPG book is a non-existent mythical beast.
The very error-free-ness would cause an error.

User avatar
pawndream
Red Cap
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:25 am
Location: Texas

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by pawndream »

I can certainly understand why long-time Castles & Crusades supporters would be disappointed at finding errors within the latest printings, for a game that has essentially remained the same through four and six printings(M&T and PHB, respectively), but in the big picture: these errors are relatively minor.

I am relatively new to C&C (coming up on 3 years), but the whole reason I came to this game was to get away from systems that are loaded with a rule for everything and are cross-referenced and matrixed with other books.

C&C provides the basic nuts and bolts for a vehicle which moves along pretty well. Sure the ride might be bumpy along the way, but it's fun. C&C is the Jeep of the RPG industry. It will never be a Lexus, regardless of how much color you put on her or how glossy her pages become.

All that said, I understand others' frustration, but I am pretty happy with the latest printing, warts and all.

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Treebore »

pawndream wrote:I can certainly understand why long-time Castles & Crusades supporters would be disappointed at finding errors within the latest printings, for a game that has essentially remained the same through four and six printings(M&T and PHB, respectively), but in the big picture: these errors are relatively minor.

I am relatively new to C&C (coming up on 3 years), but the whole reason I came to this game was to get away from systems that are loaded with a rule for everything and are cross-referenced and matrixed with other books.

C&C provides the basic nuts and bolts for a vehicle which moves along pretty well. Sure the ride might be bumpy along the way, but it's fun. C&C is the Jeep of the RPG industry. It will never be a Lexus, regardless of how much color you put on her or how glossy her pages become.

All that said, I understand others' frustration, but I am pretty happy with the latest printing, warts and all.
Oh, I am happy enough, and I already have House Rules, etc... to handle everything the Trolls got wrong, in my opinion. I am just lamenting the death of my dream of error free books. A dream fittingly killed by Trolls.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Arduin »

Rigon wrote: You did, however, say the charts were correct.
R-
As far as I can tell they were printed as intended.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Snoring Rock »

Arduin wrote:
Rigon wrote: You did, however, say the charts were correct.
R-
As far as I can tell they were printed as intended.
No, it was a mistake. It was not intended at all. I just had a conversation with Steve and it will be fixed in later printings.

User avatar
Snoring Rock
Lore Drake
Posts: 1003
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 am
Location: St. James, Missouri

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Snoring Rock »

The charts are correct, just incomplete. The cost and experience are indeed; missing.

User avatar
dachda
Lore Drake
Posts: 1559
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:00 am
Location: Topsham, Maine

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by dachda »

Snoring Rock wrote:The charts are correct, just incomplete. The cost and experience are indeed; missing.
Maybe the Trolls can at least give us a downloadable page with the corrected charts, so we have something to work with.

User avatar
Traveller
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2021
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 7:00 am

Re: M&T Missing Portions of Tables

Post by Traveller »

Snoring Rock wrote:I was so excited to receive my new M&T. The color is fantastic and the editing to remove the 3.5-isms was good too. But alas, my joy was short-lived. On page 136 are tables 4.4B and 4.4D; random armor and shield types. The experience rewards and prices are missing from both tables. What a disappointment.

Before anyone makes the suggestion of going back and referencing the old M&T when I need that information, please remember that I spent money for this book. It should contain the information. While the editing has improved, the proof-reading for this kind of thing remains the same.

Does anyone know; am I the only one to notice this? Was it just a few or was the entire run of books printed with the missing information? I assume I am stuck with it.
The table snafu is ultimately my responsibility. When I changed the tables I provided the bare minimum necessary to have the tables actually work. I didn't include xp and gp values with the edit as I assumed those values would be added when the tables were updated. In hindsight, I should have provided that information.

Sorry to crush the dream of error-free books. But think of the alternative. You could be playing Traveller 5.

@dachda: a color PDF of the corrected tables isn't too much to ask for.

Post Reply