Printing Differences in Player's Handbook

[Revfan]

Newbie here, and first post.

I am getting back into RPGs after many decades (played in the late 70s & Early 80s) and heard some good things about Pathfinder so I took a chance and got a good deal on some of the core books.

Well, I got em, read through them, and it really wasn't the direction I wanted to go. So I asked around on some other forums, and a good number of folks suggested that C&C might be what I was looking for.

Ever the bargain hunter, I turned to eBay/CList to get a deal on some books... but thats when the wheels fell off my gaming truck.

I am sure there is/was an internal debate about using the term printing or going with the more standard "version", but then again, things get named for a reason...

Sooooooo....

What, are the differences, if any, between all the different "printings"? Is there a difference? Is one just correcting the mistakes made in the other? Are the difference slight (in "Printing" 4, all loo brushes are +2 against porcelain toilets and only +1 against enameled iron toilets)

To muddy the waters further, there seems to be a mix of Leather Bound and specialty Kickstarter editions to confuse...

I couldn't find a definitive answer, so I am hoping this is the place to ask...

I hope I got the covers and dates right... it took longer to get it all together than it looks (something like this should be on their home page, but links to the current books come up empty)


------- P1 2004 ------------ P2 2005 ----------- P3 2006 --------------- P4 2009 ------------ P5 2012 ------------- P6 2014
****The order has been change to reflect information in the posts below****

Now, what are the differences? For the Savvy bargain hunter, are 1-3 a wash? What can 4 do that 3 can't and why would it be best to go with 6 over 5? If its really a printing number and not a version/change....

Help!

(for the sake of argument, I have Player Hanbook P5 and Monster & Treasure P3)

[Omote]

The 6th printing of the Player's Handbook is the most recent version with collected errata and some stylistic changes. I recommend this one most. There was a substantial change from P3 to P4 in style and a few small content changes, though all versions are still completely compatible. My suggestion is to stay away from the 1st three printings since, though the rules are the same, the game has evolved to a point. If you need a base version, go with the latest printing. The content changes from P5 to P6 are virtually nil. P4 is all black and white printing, on standard paper. P5 is color printing on a parchment style paper. P6 is likewise full color, on glossy paper.

Go with the latest version of the Monsters and Treasure book (4th printing), if you need that book. Quite frankly, it's the best of all three.

The leather versions, kickstarter versions, and GenCon exclusives I would stay away from since there are so many, at least at first. If the collector in you needs them, by all means obtain them. But as a newbie, I suggest caution with those versions at this point.

~O

[alcyone]

I recommend getting the latest, or at least getting the latest in PDF so you can print out any changes and slip into whatever version of the print you buy.

If you do buy 1st, 2nd, or 3rd printing, download http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdfs ... Errata.pdf which should bring you up to date with 4th printing (combat dominance for fighter, new version of the Barbarian, new Illusionist spells). Subsequent printings don't add any new rules that I recall, but do clarify or fix minor things. I don't think there is an errata document to get you from 4th to the current printing, but you can find them scattered all over this board.

[Buttmonkey]

I'll chime in to point out the only difference (to my knowledge) between the 4th and 5th printings was the conversion to color. Personally, I think the B&W version looked much better, so I'd recommend the 4th printing over the 5th.

As noted by Omote, the biggest change in content outside errata was from the 3rd to the 4th printing. The barbarian was revamped and a bunch of new illusionist spells were added. I think there may have been some minor tweaks to the flavor text of the monk, but I haven't checked to confirm that.

There were supposed to be changes in the rules presentation with the new (6th) printing. I actually haven't read those portions to find out yet. The rules themselves weren't supposed to change at all. There was just supposed to be a more thorough explanation/discussion of how the SIEGE engine works.

The bottom line is I think your best bets are getting the 4th, 5th, or 6th printing. The leatherbound printings have identical contents to the regular version of the same print runs. I can't see any need to get the more obscure specialty printings (e.g., I have a specialty version with the rune mark class included, but I wouldn't recommend tracking a copy down. If you can find one, the price will likely be ridiculous and you can get the rune mark information in the Rune Mark book if you want it.).

I'm pretty sure you have the cover icons mixed up. What you have as the first printing looks like the 3rd printing. You can ID the print run by looking at the product number at the bottom of the book's spine. The last digit tells you the print run (i.e., if the number is XXXX1, you know it is a first printing; XXXX6 says it is the 6th printing).

If you have the 5th printing of the PHB and 3rd printing of Monsters & Treasures, I think you are in great shape already. The differences between the 5th and 6th printings are not enough to justify shelling out for a new book until you try the game out and see if you like it. The rules content is really the same between the two. The 6th printing just has errata fixes and a slightly different presentation of the core mechanics.

I believe the Trolls refer to "printings" rather than "versions" or "editions" because they swore at the beginning that there would never be a second edition of C&C. When new printings came out a few years ago with errata corrections, some internet trolls tried to pick a fight about it claiming TLG was releasing a new edition. Whether the changes over the years constitute a new edition is an academic discussion that isn't really necessary. You can use any printing of the PHB and fit in at a C&C table. The differences between the 1st printing and the 6th printing are insignificant compared to the differences between editions of D&D, for example.

Sorry of the long, rambling post. Welcome to the Crusade!

[Warunsun]

I definitely recommend version 2009 or later. Also Monsters & Treasure is the combined DMG and MM basically. The Castlekeeper's Guide is a book of a lot of options and isn't necessary to enjoy C&C.

[Portly Fighter]

I would highly suggest buying the latest printing of the PHB (6th). It has all of the latest corrections and is a very beautiful book. The latest printing of the Monsters and Treasure would also be the best to get as it has the xp values for monsters corrected so they actually work as stated in the book. It is also full color and quite a gorgeous book. As far as the Castle Keepers guide goes, it is an entirely optional book full of optional rules. It has a lot of cool ideas in it that you may want to look at and use, but I would wait until the newest printing comes out around March as it will be in full color and updated as well.

That said, all of the printings are compatible and mostly the same game, I would use 4th printing onward however as they are much better edited. Hope this helps! Welcome to the Crusade!

[pawndream]

I only have the 4th and 6th printings and like them both for different reasons. The 4th printing seems more sturdy to me, like it will stand up to the abuses of play, whereas the 6th is very nice to look at, but seems more, flimsy? Maybe it's just because of the glossy paper. I like the 6th printing, I am just more gentle when viewing it. The 4th gets tossed around and treated more roughly.

6th printing is a classy lady you take out for wine and cheese.

4th printing is the gal you can take to the local pub and toss back beer and pretzels.

[DMSamuel]

6th printing is a classy lady you take out for wine and cheese.

4th printing is the gal you can take to the local pub and toss back beer and pretzels.

And 5th printing is the one you glance at and keep on going...


I recommend either the 4th or 6th printing - stay away from 5th, it is very hard on the eyes. The 4th printing b/w pages seem thicker, but my 6th printing has stood up pretty well for the last few weeks of me paging through it nearly every day and using at the table twice.

The only major change my players noticed between 4th and 5/6 is the encumbrance rules. It is calculated differently and explained differently in 1-4 than it is in 5 & 6. But honestly, it's not that huge of a change.

[pawndream]

And 5th printing is the one you glance at and keep on going...

I recommend either the 4th or 6th printing - stay away from 5th, it is very hard on the eyes. The 4th printing b/w pages seem thicker, but my 6th printing has stood up pretty well for the last few weeks of me paging through it nearly every day and using at the table twice.

Good to hear it has stood up to the abuses of play. That glossy paper feels like it could rip easily, but perhaps it is stronger than it feels/looks.

The only major change my players noticed between 4th and 5/6 is the encumbrance rules. It is calculated differently and explained differently in 1-4 than it is in 5 & 6. But honestly, it's not that huge of a change.

Now, there is something (C&C encumbrance rules) that I glance at and keep on going! Needlessly complex. I prefer the eyeball it method and if something looks off, then we have a discussion and go into bean counter mode if we can't come to an agreement about what is reasonable.

One other minor quibble. I wish the races had been placed before the classes section. It seems counter-intuitive to me to have class first, but it's not that big of a deal.

[slimykuotoan]

Here's my take:

1st printing: best cover art but really not good internal organization of text. Black and white text

2nd printing: best cover art and perfect organization of text. Black and white text

3rd printing: more yellowed 1st/2nd printing cover art, with an absence of the background map of the 1st/2nd printing. Also, the interior pages are glossy. Black and white text

4th printing: not great cover art (this' subjective) but has the addition of a completely new version of the barbarian class. Think a development from a berzerker to Conan flavour. Also, the illusionist gets additional spells, and can also function much like the cleric for some reason. Black and white text

5th printing: awesome cover art but with an interior which is difficult for many to read due to its coloured pages and coloured text. Full colour interior

6th printing: o.k. cover art, but with interior text also coloured an 'off red', or reddish brown. (I found this aesthetically displeasing, but once again, this' subjective) Full colour interior

1-3 printings: same rules, black & white

4-6 printings: all possess the same slightly updated rules and rule additions (more or less), 5th and 6th printings have coloured everything, including text

Really, any addition might do, depending upon what you want.

1-3 printings: a barbarian which is basically a berserker, and an illusionist who's pretty standard

4-6 printings: a barbarian who's similar to Conan, and an illusionist who's also the party healer

If you want the most recent version of everything:

4th printing: newest rules, black & white
5th or 6th printing: newest rules, coloured everything

[slimykuotoan]

P.S. The CKG is a wonderful options/additions guide -similar in awesomeness to the 1st edition DMG.

There's also a new version which features coloured art, pages, and text.

[Snoring Rock]

Here's my take:

1st printing: best cover art but really not good internal organization of text. Black and white text

2nd printing: best cover art and perfect organization of text. Black and white text

3rd printing: more yellowed 1st/2nd printing cover art, with an absence of the background map of the 1st/2nd printing. Also, the interior pages are glossy. Black and white text

4th printing: not great cover art (this' subjective) but has the addition of a completely new version of the barbarian class. Think a development from a berzerker to Conan flavour. Also, the illusionist gets additional spells, and can also function much like the cleric for some reason. Black and white text

5th printing: awesome cover art but with an interior which is difficult for many to read due to its coloured pages and coloured text. Full colour interior

6th printing: o.k. cover art, but with interior text also coloured an 'off red', or reddish brown. (I found this aesthetically displeasing, but once again, this' subjective) Full colour interior

1-3 printings: same rules, black & white

4-6 printings: all possess the same slightly updated rules and rule additions (more or less), 5th and 6th printings have coloured everything, including text

Really, any addition might do, depending upon what you want.

1-3 printings: a barbarian which is basically a berserker, and an illusionist who's pretty standard

4-6 printings: a barbarian who's similar to Conan, and an illusionist who's also the party healer

If you want the most recent version of everything:

4th printing: newest rules, black & white
5th or 6th printing: newest rules, coloured everything

Yes it is subjective. I, in contrast, love the newest printing 6 with the slick "modernistic--think D&D 3.x/Pathfinder" quality glossy color pages. The book is heavier and the pages tougher, even has more pages, but it is thinner. I think it has the best errata removed, best descriptions, and most durable with the best cover art to date. Again as Slimy states, all subjective.

I would suggest printing 4 if you can get it really inexpensive and you are not sure you may stick with it. If you are all in for C&C, get the newest book. It is nice and shiny and fabulous.....subjective.

[slimykuotoan]

Hmm, just to be clear, my issue wasn't with glossy pages, it was with the coloured, reddish text. And yeah, totally subjective.

But that said, if it wasn't for that coloured text, I would consider everything else about the 6th printing to be awesome.

[alcyone]

I didn't like the 3rd printing. Didn't like the glossy pages, and it smelled weird.

[Lord Dynel]

I didn't like the 3rd printing. Didn't like the glossy pages, and it smelled weird.

Haha, yeah. It did have a peculiar smell about it.

[Revfan]

See... I wish there had been this thread before I bought my books...

Impatiences wins again!

Thanks for the descriptions... Do I have the pictures right with the printings in the OP? I think I may have the 1st and 3rd switched...

Anyway, I think I would have been a 4th Edition fan... I don't mind black and white, and one of the reasons I am switching to C&C is that I just don't like the look of the pathfinder books. Call me old school, but I hate seeing characters with swords 2 feet wide and 7 feet long...

But I cut my teeth on D&D v1 so I am used to Black and White illustrations.

[Lord Dynel]

See... I wish there had been this thread before I bought my books...

Impatiences wins again!

Thanks for the descriptions... Do I have the pictures right with the printings in the OP? I think I may have the 1st and 3rd switched...

Anyway, I think I would have been a 4th Edition fan... I don't mind black and white, and one of the reasons I am switching to C&C is that I just don't like the look of the pathfinder books. Call me old school, but I hate seeing characters with swords 2 feet wide and 7 feet long...

But I cut my teeth on D&D v1 so I am used to Black and White illustrations.

Eh, it happens.

And yes, I'm 99% sure that the "1st printing" you have as listed is actually the 3rd printing. I honestly don't have a 1st or 2nd printing. I own a 3rd printing, and it matches what you have listed as the 1st. Mine also has a 2007 copyright.

And nothin' wrong with being old school!

[Kayolan]

Call me old school, but I hate seeing characters with swords 2 feet wide and 7 feet long...

This.

[slimykuotoan]

Black 'n white baby!

[mbeacom]

I know it's too late but I'll give my piece as well.
First, I would say Buttmonkey and Slimy have a ton of useful info in their posts. Thanks for that. These should probably be stickied somewhere. I swear this question comes up 2-3 times per year.

Second, I much prefer the 4th printing. By then they had cleaned up all the presentation (the 1st printing was very amateurish in layout but worked fine).

I don't care for 5th/6th due to the paper and color of the text. I find it much harder to read. There should be a rule that no matter what, only black text is acceptable IMO.

As for that, my favorite is the flipbook. It is soft cover, B&W and has 4th printing of the PHB combined with 3rd printing of the M&T. One book is all you need in this game and it is the flip book. And while I very much like Peters artwork, I find the covers of the Flip Book the most to my taste.

[slimykuotoan]

I don't care for 5th/6th due to the paper and color of the text. I find it much harder to read. There should be a rule that no matter what, only black text is acceptable IMO.

Here here!

As for that, my favorite is the flipbook. It is soft cover, B&W and has 4th printing of the PHB combined with 3rd printing of the M&T. One book is all you need in this game and it is the flip book. And while I very much like Peters artwork, I find the covers of the Flip Book the most to my taste.

Yeah agreed. The flip book is awesome.

[Revfan]

Ok... what is "The Flipbook"

Is that the digest version?

[mbeacom]

It is this

https://www.trolllord.com/store/product ... cts_id=285

And it's amazing. Full size, not digest.

It's PHB and M&T combined into one soft cover B&W book. They call it the flip book because they are set up opposite each other and upside down. So you flip it over (top to bottom) and it's correct for the other book.

[Lord Dynel]

It is this

https://www.trolllord.com/store/product ... cts_id=285

And it's amazing. Full size, not digest.

It's PHB and M&T combined into one soft cover B&W book. They call it the flip book because they are set up opposite each other and upside down. So you flip it over (top to bottom) and it's correct for the other book.

I never picked up a flip book. Maybe I'll see if the Trolls have one at their booth at GenCon, assuming it's still available.

[Revfan]

Well... shoot!

I shouldda bought the flip book!...

But I gotta say, they are making it pretty confusing to the non-initiated. Printing instead of Version.. and now the "Flip Book". I envisioned a spiral bound notebook thing with a concise set of rules without the fluff!

This noob is slowly getting up to speed....

[Rigon]

It is this

https://www.trolllord.com/store/product ... cts_id=285

And it's amazing. Full size, not digest.

It's PHB and M&T combined into one soft cover B&W book. They call it the flip book because they are set up opposite each other and upside down. So you flip it over (top to bottom) and it's correct for the other book.

I never picked up a flip book. Maybe I'll see if the Trolls have one at their booth at GenCon, assuming it's still available.

I'll Likely get a newer Flipbook instead of buying another PHB or M&T. 4 PHBs and 3 M&Ts are enough for one guy who primarily plays online. I should gift my softbacks to someone.

R-

[mbeacom]

It is this

https://www.trolllord.com/store/product ... cts_id=285

And it's amazing. Full size, not digest.

It's PHB and M&T combined into one soft cover B&W book. They call it the flip book because they are set up opposite each other and upside down. So you flip it over (top to bottom) and it's correct for the other book.

I never picked up a flip book. Maybe I'll see if the Trolls have one at their booth at GenCon, assuming it's still available.

I'll Likely get a newer Flipbook instead of buying another PHB or M&T. 4 PHBs and 3 M&Ts are enough for one guy who primarily plays online. I should gift my softbacks to someone.

R-

That sounds like a great idea. I recall they were going to reprint the flip book. I might double check and see if they're going to reprint it with 4th printing M&T. That's something I'd like to have as well, despite the fact that I have more than half a dozen PHBs in various incarnations.

[Rigon]

It is this

https://www.trolllord.com/store/product ... cts_id=285

And it's amazing. Full size, not digest.

It's PHB and M&T combined into one soft cover B&W book. They call it the flip book because they are set up opposite each other and upside down. So you flip it over (top to bottom) and it's correct for the other book.

I never picked up a flip book. Maybe I'll see if the Trolls have one at their booth at GenCon, assuming it's still available.

I'll Likely get a newer Flipbook instead of buying another PHB or M&T. 4 PHBs and 3 M&Ts are enough for one guy who primarily plays online. I should gift my softbacks to someone.

R-

That sounds like a great idea. I recall they were going to reprint the flip book. I might double check and see if they're going to reprint it with 4th printing M&T. That's something I'd like to have as well, despite the fact that I have more than half a dozen PHBs in various incarnations.

I checked yesterday and the current Flipbook blurb reads that it is the 6th print PHB and 4th print M&T.

R-

[mbeacom]

It is this

https://www.trolllord.com/store/product ... cts_id=285

And it's amazing. Full size, not digest.

It's PHB and M&T combined into one soft cover B&W book. They call it the flip book because they are set up opposite each other and upside down. So you flip it over (top to bottom) and it's correct for the other book.

I never picked up a flip book. Maybe I'll see if the Trolls have one at their booth at GenCon, assuming it's still available.

I'll Likely get a newer Flipbook instead of buying another PHB or M&T. 4 PHBs and 3 M&Ts are enough for one guy who primarily plays online. I should gift my softbacks to someone.

R-

That sounds like a great idea. I recall they were going to reprint the flip book. I might double check and see if they're going to reprint it with 4th printing M&T. That's something I'd like to have as well, despite the fact that I have more than half a dozen PHBs in various incarnations.

I checked yesterday and the current Flipbook blurb reads that it is the 6th print PHB and 4th print M&T.

R-

ooooh, nice.