Troll Lord Games

Aergraith wrote:Well, if it's not by THE book it's by some book; some editions of Classic D&D had "Hopeless Characters".

With all respect to the august personages debating here:

I don't think it really matters, but let us suppose that there is one way that is by the book and all other ways are not.
CK "A" says, roll a character and play it. Muahahaha.
CK "B" says, roll a character, discard if I feel it is unviable, and repeat until you have a nice character.

I'd say CK "A" was playing strictly by the book and could claim a cookie or whatever the prize is for such a dubious honor in a game that delights in giving the finger to the rulebook.

The CK "B" case more closely resembles Method IV in the CKG with a few important differences:
- CK determines how many characters are rolled instead of a straight 13.
- CK determines what is fit for play instead of player choosing one of 13.
Interestingly, the CKG says "This method only incrementally increases the character’s power, and
only when the character is considered as a whole, as the individual
character has not received any increase in attribute generation." I suspect that "only incrementally" isn't supported by statistics here; you'll get a much better character since several combinations will probably be suitable to your desired class.

I am sort of confused what the argument is here so I will shut up.

It goes back to AD&D actually, one of the methods allows a player to create 12 characters and choose the one he likes, though with that method it is in order. Btb C&C lets you assign them. All I'm doing is letting players roll another character until I see a set of attributes that aren't abysmally bad. Technically I'm not going against any rule, but most people think it goes against the spirit or intent of the writing on character generation. But, the way I see it, you are not rerolling the same character. Is this a way out? I don't think so, but some would disagree.

Kayolan wrote:So accordingly, you are never allowed to create another character unless the one you have dies? If doing so, I am not going btb?

"My character hangs himself when he reaches puberty. Time to roll a new one..."

I'd like to remind everyone that there are 6 attribute generation methods on page 10 of the Castle Keeper's Guide. Using any of these is *also* "going by the book".

mmbutter wrote:I'd like to remind everyone that there are 6 attribute generation methods on page 10 of the Castle Keeper's Guide. Using any of these is *also* "going by the book".

My understanding of the CKG content is that they are optional/variant rules, not part of btb C&C. For my Tuesday game, I use a lot of that material, but I wouldn't call my Tuesday game btb.

Kayolan wrote:My understanding of the CKG content is that they are optional/variant rules, not part of btb C&C. For my Tuesday game, I use a lot of that material, but I wouldn't call my Tuesday game btb.

They may be optional, but they're still a part of the books published by TLG for playing C&C.

Or would using any creature or magic item in the M&T also be "not by the book"?

Aergraith wrote:some editions of Classic D&D had "Hopeless Characters".

Right. Forgot BD&D Holmes had this.

Paraphasing a bit:

"At the DM's discretion such a character could be left at home and a new one rolled up".

Even after adjusting ability scores, I do recall that we left a few characters at home back in the day!

So, btb in Holmes.

Great discussion in this thread!

Thanks for all the replies!

mmbutter wrote:Or would using any creature or magic item in the M&T also be "not by the book"?

In the M&T it says you can do whatever you want with monsters, change them, add new ones, whatever. Magic items are just that, you can use the ones in the book or make your own, etc. The few actual rules in that book would be btb as far as I'm concerned because they are not labeled as optional, whereas the CKG content is specifically called such.

Rhuvein wrote:

Aergraith wrote:some editions of Classic D&D had "Hopeless Characters".

Right. Forgot BD&D Holmes had this.

Paraphasing a bit:

"At the DM's discretion such a character could be left at home and a new one rolled up".

Even after adjusting ability scores, I do recall that we left a few characters at home back in the day!

So, btb in Holmes.

Great discussion in this thread!

Thanks for all the replies!

I had to look that up Rhuvein and I'm glad I did, here is the text to which you refer:

"HOPELESS CHARACTERS"
Sometimes the universe of chance allows a
character to appear who is below average in
everything. At the Dungeon Master's discretion, such a
character might be declared unsuitable for dangerous
adventures and left at home. Another character would
then be rolled to take his place. There is enough chance
in the dungeon encounters, however, that sometimes a
character like this will survive and advance to a
position of power and importance.

There are lots of stuff in the PHB that are marked as "optional" - so, if you use *any* of these you're not "playing by the book"?

BTW, the PHB says that the CKG can be useful for the CK - so those rules are incorporated by reference. Making them optional just means that you don't *have* to use them, but using them as written is still "by the book".

mmbutter wrote:There are lots of stuff in the PHB that are marked as "optional" - so, if you use *any* of these you're not "playing by the book"?

BTW, the PHB says that the CKG can be useful for the CK - so those rules are incorporated by reference. Making them optional just means that you don't *have* to use them, but using them as written is still "by the book".

Obviously if the rule in the PHB is marked optional then it's optional. But the rules in the CKG are ALL optional. Keep in mind, I'm not saying you can't or aren't encouraged by the game to house rule if you wish, but we are talking about the rules as written, and that is a very strict standard.

Kayolan wrote:

Rhuvein wrote:

Aergraith wrote:some editions of Classic D&D had "Hopeless Characters".

Right. Forgot BD&D Holmes had this.

Paraphasing a bit:

"At the DM's discretion such a character could be left at home and a new one rolled up".

Even after adjusting ability scores, I do recall that we left a few characters at home back in the day!

So, btb in Holmes.

Great discussion in this thread!

Thanks for all the replies!

I had to look that up Rhuvein and I'm glad I did, here is the text to which you refer:

"HOPELESS CHARACTERS"
Sometimes the universe of chance allows a
character to appear who is below average in
everything. At the Dungeon Master's discretion, such a
character might be declared unsuitable for dangerous
adventures and left at home. Another character would
then be rolled to take his place. There is enough chance
in the dungeon encounters, however, that sometimes a
character like this will survive and advance to a
position of power and importance.

Wow, I'd forgotten that from back in the day ... I remember one character that fell under that rule and the DM made me play him ... I sould have done what mmbutter said

mmbutter wrote:
"My character hangs himself when he reaches puberty. Time to roll a new one..."

Needless to say, it wasn't pretty

3D6 => 6
3D6 => 6
3D6 => 11
3D6 => 10
3D6 => 13
3D6 => 11

mmbutter wrote:I'd like to remind everyone that there are 6 attribute generation methods on page 10 of the Castle Keeper's Guide. Using any of these is *also* "going by the book".

Naw. The CKG is a non core book of rule variants and suggestions. BTB means core rules.

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Kayo is absolutely btb if he lets them arrange the scores as desired. The book makes clear that what or how you adventure is your choice and when a character retires is up to the player and/or CK. If they retire before taking the field, that's perfectly btb. It does not disallow more than one character that I recall, certainly nothing quoted in this thread does. I think people are confusing the rules with the spirit. People may think he's side stepping the spirit of the rules which is assumed to be that you're stuck with what you got. Unfortunately, the spirit is purely a matter of personal opinion. And i think the trolls have made it clear in dozens of places in the book that having fun is the key, not sticking someone with something they are unhappy with or with horrible chances of survival. So I would say Kayos method is not only btb, but also within the spirit of the rules. The rules discuss how to create a character (talk about semantics, bolding a single letter!) but would do so even if it was assumed you'd play 10 characters, since you'd simply repeat the character creation steps 10 times in that case. It simply doesn't make an assumption either way that I can see. Some may not like it, or think it's semantics, but that doesn't make it not btb. RAW is very frequently an issue of semantics so to say someone playing btb is trading in semantics is axiomatic if not completely redundant. Since RAW is concerned with meaning, as is semantics. That's why arguing about it is so fun.

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Lots of classes to play and a mix adds flavor.

My very first C&C character was a halfling druid, I rolled 3d6 and my first score was a 18 ! My second was a 3 The character did last a while until he was killed by a boar ( no spells to charm it ) and I put the 3 in dex so not a good AC.

IMP

mbeacom wrote: If they retire before taking the field, that's perfectly btb.

If the GM makes all the scores 18 that is also btb as the book doesn't prohibit it. The book also doesn't state WHEN the D6's had to be rolled. So, you can use a roll from 20 years ago that was an 18.

Ya crack me up.

OK, so let me make sure I'm clear:

Optional rules in the PHB are "by the book".
Optional rules in the M&T are "by the book" because M&T is referenced in the PHB.
Optional rules in the CKG (also referenced in the PHB) are NOT "by the book".

<sarcasm>Makes sense.</sarcasm>

mmbutter wrote:OK, so let me make sure I'm clear:

The CORE rules are contained in TWO books. PHB & M&T. Per the TL's anyway. Clear?

ALL other items and books are not considered "btb" when discussing "RAW"

Arduin wrote:

mmbutter wrote:OK, so let me make sure I'm clear:

The CORE rules are contained in TWO books. PHB & M&T. Per the TL's anyway. Clear?

ALL other items and books are not considered "btb" when discussing "RAW"

Are optional rules in the PHB and M&T "BtB?"

R-

Rigon wrote: Are optional rules in the PHB and M&T "BtB?"

R-

Those would be optional (if stated) btb (aka RAW) as opposed to default.

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Always the good with the bad...

~O

Arduin wrote:

Rigon wrote: Are optional rules in the PHB and M&T "BtB?"

R-

Those would be optional (if stated) btb (aka RAW) as opposed to default.

All rules, by definition, are optional; therefore, no rules are btb. At best, they are only suggestions of how one might play a game.

R-

Omote wrote:19
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Always the good with the bad...

~O

That 19 on a maximum of 18 is pretty damn impressive. Did you modify with something? Race?

serleran wrote:

Omote wrote:19
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Always the good with the bad...

~O

That 19 on a maximum of 18 is pretty damn impressive. Did you modify with something? Race?

No, O is just that dang awesome. His 3d6 rolls come out 19s.

R-

Rigon wrote: That 19 on a maximum of 18 is pretty damn impressive. Did you modify with something? Race?

No, O is just that dang awesome. His 3d6 rolls come out 19s.

R-[/quote]

If I use my Munchkin Bag of d6, I could roll a 21... but that's would be cheating.

One day I hope to be as awesome as Omote.

serleran wrote:

Rigon wrote:

serleran wrote:That 19 on a maximum of 18 is pretty damn impressive. Did you modify with something? Race?

No, O is just that dang awesome. His 3d6 rolls come out 19s.

R-

If I use my Munchkin Bag of d6, I could roll a 21... but that's would be cheating.

One day I hope to be as awesome as Omote.

We all hope to be as awesome as Omote.

R-

Arduin wrote:The CORE rules are contained in TWO books. PHB & M&T. Per the TL's anyway. Clear?

ALL other items and books are not considered "btb" when discussing "RAW"

It's not that hard to understand, btb just means that you follow the rules as written that are in the game and that you don't change it. This is the definition of btb for all rpgs and has been as long as I've been a gamer. If you really want to insist that all optional rules are also btb, then you could say it's a btb optional game

To throw out the definition of btb, means that there is no such thing as btb, when clearly there is.

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I'm ready to play!