Troll Lord Games

What is it?

Most would say the wizard right?

Right?

It could easily vary with level...

Ancalagon wrote:It could easily vary with level...

Yep, it does vary with level quite a bit.

Totally the discussion I want. And with all that taken into consideration, which comes out on top 'overall' dost thou think?

slimykuotoan wrote:Totally the discussion I want. And with all that taken into consideration, which comes out on top 'overall' dost thou think?

Without specifying level that is impossible to quantify. It also depends on how the CK chooses rules in the PHB. If you use the base rule that any damage always ruins a spell and/or that spell casting time is per the spell description you can greatly lower the power of all casters. Just as one example.

Aramis wrote:

So with time, the wizard is unsurpassed...

Or perhaps the cleric, who's powerful at both ends?

Arduin wrote:Without specifying level that is impossible to quantify.

Sure it's possible. You can easily narrow down the choices. To not do so, would imply that at one particular level, the bard surpasses the others.

You can also talk about specific power, potential power, healing capability and etcetera.

slimykuotoan wrote:

Arduin wrote:Without specifying level that is impossible to quantify.

Sure it's possible.

No, it isn't. Not in any meaningful way.

Arduin wrote:No, it isn't. Not in any meaningful way.

Yes it is; one can discuss it.

Magic items can change it up in a big way as well. Typically, after about 5th level, the Wizard becomes the most powerful. Yet, if there is a Paladin, that gets hold of a Holy Avenger, then I would say they are the most powerful. Clerics and Druids are always in the running for most powerful as well. In a battlefield, involving armies, the Knight is the most powerful. In one on one melee, the Fighter is the most powerful, with the possible exception of the Monk. If the Monk gets the Stun and Grapple action going on you, your screwed. Then there is the Thief and the Assassin, especially the Assassin. If they get the drop on you, it could all be over before you even knew it began. Still, over all, in most situations, the Wizard rules the day starting at 5th level. By 18th level, they are darn near unstoppable. Even so, in a battle where running away is not an option, I'd put my money on a Cleric or Druid. If you can run away? The Wizard, every time, unless its against a Paladin with a Holy Avenger.

Treebore wrote:Magic items can change it up in a big way as well. Typically, after about 5th level, the Wizard becomes the most powerful. Yet, if there is a Paladin, that gets hold of a Holy Avenger, then I would say they are the most powerful. Clerics and Druids are always in the running for most powerful as well. In a battlefield, involving armies, the Knight is the most powerful. In one on one melee, the Fighter is the most powerful, with the possible exception of the Monk. If the Monk gets the Stun and Grapple action going on you, your screwed. Then there is the Thief and the Assassin, especially the Assassin. If they get the drop on you, it could all be over before you even knew it began. Still, over all, in most situations, the Wizard rules the day starting at 5th level. By 18th level, they are darn near unstoppable. Even so, in a battle where running away is not an option, I'd put my money on a Cleric or Druid. If you can run away? The Wizard, every time, unless its against a Paladin with a Holy Avenger.

Yes. It is very situational. Give me a 10th level fighter with a item like a Ring of Silence 5" radius. I unexpectedly grapple an 18th level MU. The MU might well be completely screwed with no real way to fight back or even leave.

slimykuotoan wrote:

Arduin wrote:

slimykuotoan wrote:

Arduin wrote:Without specifying level that is impossible to quantify.

Sure it's possible.

No, it isn't. Not in any meaningful way.

Yes it is; one can discuss it.

It is a bit more complicated than my "quadratic wizards" graph would imply. A 1st level wizard is devastatingly powerful. Her sleep spell can wipe out her entire party, and she has multiple uses at 1st level. But, that same powerful wizard can be slain by a mere housecat:



Then the wizard, in my experience, slows down a bit and the fighters shine. Even at 5th, the wizard gets a shiny fireball or two but the fighters are still meat-and-potatoing their way through most of the challenges.

But not long after 5th, the wizard turns into more of a superhero, with flying, and artillery carpet bombing, and dominating, and summoning, and the game plays out more like a wwII movie with the timid private, the wisecracking corporal who wears glasses but is a deadly shot, the tough sergeant with a heart of gold, and Superman wandering around getting in fights

So Aramis, you maintain that it would be a toss up bewix two classes: the fighter and the wizard, whilst Arduin maintains that there is no way of determining an answer to this question.

Interesting viewpoints so far...

And someone thinks it's clearly the cleric, who may be the most powerful o' all the classes overall.

Or, play a wizard with a House Cat familiar to protect against other house cats...



Seriously though. The NPC class of Warrior is the most powerful.

And with a straight face he declared, "I'll take the CK class for 1,000 Bob!"

1st lvl Fighter Cleric of a war God

Monk-Assassin Class and a half ain't too shabby either

I totally forgot multiclass.

Sooo, the fighter/cleric eh?

Hmm...

So modify to 1st level this vote and start two more, one at 5th and one at 10th.. move on men...

So it shall be written. So it shall be done.

I chose wizard. Nothing is for certain however as to which is the best, if there can even really be a best in a game with so many variables depending on the campaign of each individual Castle Keeper.

I was always under the impression that magic-users were likely the most powerful, reading this in the AD&D™ Players Handbook, I guess I was influenced early on to this line of thinking:

"Thus, while magic-users are not strong in combat with weapons, they are possibly the most fearsome of all character classes when high levels of ability are finally attained."

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that wizards in C&C are even more proficient in magic when it comes to the amount of spells they get to cast per day. Though with the saves it can get tricky.

slimykuotoan wrote:So it shall be written. So it shall be done.

Are you just trying to get your post count up?

Kayolan wrote:I chose wizard. Nothing is for certain however as to which is the best, if there can even really be a best in a game with so many variables depending on the campaign of each individual Castle Keeper.

I was always under the impression that magic-users were likely the most powerful, reading this in the AD&D™ Players Handbook, I guess I was influenced early on to this line of thinking:

"Thus, while magic-users are not strong in combat with weapons, they are possibly the most fearsome of all character classes when high levels of ability are finally attained."

Oh, yeah, I agree Wizards are pretty weak at low levels, but 5th level is when that starts to turn around, and by about 9th level it really starts to kick in.

I mean, a Wizard Flying around with Improved Invisibility and Wall Of Fire up around themselves is a incredibly devastating move. Sure, it can take a few rounds, but time is on their side, and they can do that at 9th level. Imagine what they can do by 18th. I don't have to, I have actually played and ran 18th level games and characters. Going strictly by class powers, and no magic items, Clerics and Druids are the only classes that can even hope to stand up to a Wizard by 18th level. Even then, Wizards are the masters of running away to fight another day, so if you don't beat them in that first fight, they will win the next one.

Treebore wrote:

Kayolan wrote:I chose wizard. Nothing is for certain however as to which is the best, if there can even really be a best in a game with so many variables depending on the campaign of each individual Castle Keeper.

I was always under the impression that magic-users were likely the most powerful, reading this in the AD&D™ Players Handbook, I guess I was influenced early on to this line of thinking:

"Thus, while magic-users are not strong in combat with weapons, they are possibly the most fearsome of all character classes when high levels of ability are finally attained."

Oh, yeah, I agree Wizards are pretty weak at low levels, but 5th level is when that starts to turn around, and by about 9th level it really starts to kick in.

I mean, a Wizard Flying around with Improved Invisibility and Wall Of Fire up around themselves is a incredibly devastating move. Sure, it can take a few rounds, but time is on their side, and they can do that at 9th level. Imagine what they can do by 18th. I don't have to, I have actually played and ran 18th level games and characters. Going strictly by class powers, and no magic items, Clerics and Druids are the only classes that can even hope to stand up to a Wizard by 18th level. Even then, Wizards are the masters of running away to fight another day, so if you don't beat them in that first fight, they will win the next one.

Yeah you're right, wizards totally kick ass at higher levels, almost god-like in what they can do.

Kayolan wrote:

Treebore wrote:

Kayolan wrote:I chose wizard. Nothing is for certain however as to which is the best, if there can even really be a best in a game with so many variables depending on the campaign of each individual Castle Keeper.

I was always under the impression that magic-users were likely the most powerful, reading this in the AD&D™ Players Handbook, I guess I was influenced early on to this line of thinking:

"Thus, while magic-users are not strong in combat with weapons, they are possibly the most fearsome of all character classes when high levels of ability are finally attained."

Oh, yeah, I agree Wizards are pretty weak at low levels, but 5th level is when that starts to turn around, and by about 9th level it really starts to kick in.

I mean, a Wizard Flying around with Improved Invisibility and Wall Of Fire up around themselves is a incredibly devastating move. Sure, it can take a few rounds, but time is on their side, and they can do that at 9th level. Imagine what they can do by 18th. I don't have to, I have actually played and ran 18th level games and characters. Going strictly by class powers, and no magic items, Clerics and Druids are the only classes that can even hope to stand up to a Wizard by 18th level. Even then, Wizards are the masters of running away to fight another day, so if you don't beat them in that first fight, they will win the next one.

Yeah you're right, wizards totally kick ass at higher levels, almost god-like in what they can do.

I was wondering if you made the session where Aramis' had Arkouna flying around with the Wall of Fire up, frying all those Ogres and other humanoids to death. Now consider that Arkouna is a Wizard-Druid! Arkouna has been holding back, letting all you pretenders feel like you are useful, which you are, since you draw most if not all of the attacks from him. If Aramis played Arkouna to the hilt, most of you would feel useless.
Even Osahar has been played very conservatively. Even so, as a Paladin Runemark, Osahar showed in very awesome fashion how kick butt he is when he had that contest with that Dragon, and the winner was which ever handled that one attack the best. Osahar was completely unharmed, and that Dragon was hurting pretty badly.

Aergraith wrote:

slimykuotoan wrote:So it shall be written. So it shall be done.

Are you just trying to get your post count up?

Lol

Interesting discussion to be sure.

One thing that I was thinking about with regard to the cleric and this may apply to the wizard as well.

When I play a cleric, I almost always pick spells that benefit the party rather than myself.
But one could certainly beef up a cleric using those spells that help him rather than others and thus he could be very powerful, indeed.

Rhuvein wrote:...But one could certainly beef up a cleric using those spells that help him rather than others and thus he could be very powerful, indeed.

Good point.