The most powerful class in C&C at 1st lvl.

[Treebore]

A Knight is definitely a tough class, until they are 8th level and run into a 29 HD Purple Worm in a tunnel... then they are worm food. Right, Kayolan?

[serleran]

That depends a great deal on the animal... and their personality, which should be determined by the DM. Even a wolf can be cowardly or a chicken a warbird.

Yes, a GM is free to house rule. However, these are animals and don't have human like motivations, fears, etc. Undomesticated animals almost NEVER fight for non-hunting reasons or immediate defense when attacked. As I said, played by the spell description (without GM house rules) it isn't that powerful.

ALSO, reread part about taking them out of their native environment. That severely limits the animal's usage.

For the first part, it is more or less abused as charm person except that spell works against, potentially, a 20th level fighter whereas the druid spell, at same casting level (1st) can do what, 2 HD? The spell requires interpretation and the rules are not so clear-cut as to what the animal will do, or how it must respond to any given situation so the DM is, as always, the final arbiter. That's neither good or bad, but there are no "rules" for it.

As to the second part -- sure, if you befriend a fish and then walk all over the forest. Many animals have multiple environments. A wolf or bear might not want to go into an urban settlement, but you can take them from the trees to the plains.

Unlike charm person though, this spell gets much more powerful, especially in tandem, with other druid spells. I would not say this spell makes the druid powerful at first level... but 12th? Hell yes.

But, all of these conversations related to power are going to be biased on our own readings of the rules, and whether we would allow "abuse" (a term with no meaning in this sense) or not.

[Arduin]

For the first part, it is more or less abused as charm person

?? Only new or, incompetent GM's do that. But, like I correctly pointed out, the 1st level Druid spell "ain't all that" unless one doesn't or didn't read and follow the spell description.

[serleran]

For the first part, it is more or less abused as charm person

?? Only new or, incompetent GM's do that. But, like I correctly pointed out, the 1st level Druid spell "ain't all that" unless one doesn't or didn't read and follow the spell description.

There must be a lot of incompetence, then, as this argument comes up a lot.... on many boards.

I'm not saying I agree, or disagree, only that the spell(s) themselves are ripe for adjudication. Perhaps as they should be. Perhaps not.

The point is that the "rules" do not provide "musts." They provide guidelines. At least in a lot of RPGs. Some of them have much more solidified systems.

Do with them as you want... even if that makes you "incompetent."

[Arduin]

There must be a lot of incompetence, then, as this argument comes up a lot.... on many boards.

Or, lots of people who cannot read English (modern education taking its toll). The part about it becoming "onerous" is clear. And YES, being used as a meat shield and mercenary fighter would be considered onerous. (if you don't believe me, try doing it with your friends as a condition of hanging around you) Also, dragging a forest creature out of the forest on a regular basis is clear as to the consequences. A person would REALLY have to avoid reading this spell all the way through to make it powerful.

Think about it. Your "friend" drags you out of your farm cottage, brings you to the inner city, kicks in the door of a drug dealers house and pushes you inside and tells you to fight the drug dealers inside to the death. You have to do this often if you want to hang out with your friend. I can find plenty of children who would recognize that as being "onerous". I cannot think of a single adult I know who would disagree. If you find lots of people on msg boards who don't, you need to find boards that have mostly adults on them. Or, at least those over age 10.

[Rigon]

There must be a lot of incompetence, then, as this argument comes up a lot.... on many boards.

Or, lots of people who cannot read English (modern education taking its toll). The part about it becoming "onerous" is clear. And YES, being used as a meat shield and mercenary fighter would be considered onerous. (if you don't believe me, try doing it with your friends as a condition of hanging around you) Also, dragging a forest creature out of the forest on a regular basis is clear as to the consequences. A person would REALLY have to avoid reading this spell all the way through to make it powerful.

Think about it. Your "friend" drags you out of your farm cottage, brings you to the inner city, kicks in the door of a drug dealers house and pushes you inside and tells you to fight the drug dealers inside to the death. You have to do this often if you want to hang out with your friend. I can find plenty of children who would recognize that as being "onerous". I cannot think of a single adult I know who would disagree. If you find lots of people on msg boards who don't, you need to find boards that have mostly adults on them. Or, at least those over age 10.

Your interpretation is different than my interpretation which is different than Serl's. What Serl has right and you are missing is that the rules are guidelines and not absolutes. Telling him he is incompetent or doesn't understand the English language is counter productive to any discuss, let alone this one. He just interprets the spell description differently than you and that's OK. And I'm pretty sure the author of the monster book is the best person to decide what an animal would or wouldn't do in a game.

R-

[Treebore]

There must be a lot of incompetence, then, as this argument comes up a lot.... on many boards.

Or, lots of people who cannot read English (modern education taking its toll). The part about it becoming "onerous" is clear. And YES, being used as a meat shield and mercenary fighter would be considered onerous. (if you don't believe me, try doing it with your friends as a condition of hanging around you) Also, dragging a forest creature out of the forest on a regular basis is clear as to the consequences. A person would REALLY have to avoid reading this spell all the way through to make it powerful.

Think about it. Your "friend" drags you out of your farm cottage, brings you to the inner city, kicks in the door of a drug dealers house and pushes you inside and tells you to fight the drug dealers inside to the death. You have to do this often if you want to hang out with your friend. I can find plenty of children who would recognize that as being "onerous". I cannot think of a single adult I know who would disagree. If you find lots of people on msg boards who don't, you need to find boards that have mostly adults on them. Or, at least those over age 10.

Your interpretation is different than my interpretation which is different than Serl's. What Serl has right and you are missing is that the rules are guidelines and not absolutes. Telling him he is incompetent or doesn't understand the English language is counter productive to any discuss, let alone this one. He just interprets the spell description differently than you and that's OK. And I'm pretty sure the author of the monster book is the best person to decide what an animal would or wouldn't do in a game.

R-

Wait a second! Are you saying because Serl is the author of the M&T he might know what he is talking about?!? Thats crazy talk!!

[Rigon]

There must be a lot of incompetence, then, as this argument comes up a lot.... on many boards.

Or, lots of people who cannot read English (modern education taking its toll). The part about it becoming "onerous" is clear. And YES, being used as a meat shield and mercenary fighter would be considered onerous. (if you don't believe me, try doing it with your friends as a condition of hanging around you) Also, dragging a forest creature out of the forest on a regular basis is clear as to the consequences. A person would REALLY have to avoid reading this spell all the way through to make it powerful.

Think about it. Your "friend" drags you out of your farm cottage, brings you to the inner city, kicks in the door of a drug dealers house and pushes you inside and tells you to fight the drug dealers inside to the death. You have to do this often if you want to hang out with your friend. I can find plenty of children who would recognize that as being "onerous". I cannot think of a single adult I know who would disagree. If you find lots of people on msg boards who don't, you need to find boards that have mostly adults on them. Or, at least those over age 10.

Your interpretation is different than my interpretation which is different than Serl's. What Serl has right and you are missing is that the rules are guidelines and not absolutes. Telling him he is incompetent or doesn't understand the English language is counter productive to any discuss, let alone this one. He just interprets the spell description differently than you and that's OK. And I'm pretty sure the author of the monster book is the best person to decide what an animal would or wouldn't do in a game.

R-

Wait a second! Are you saying because Serl is the author of the M&T he might know what he is talking about?!? Thats crazy talk!!

Well, let's just call it radical, freethinking talk. Crazy is so passe.

R-