Troll Lord Games

May have been discussed already but how would you play this? The paladin has smite evil but has no magic weapon. He attacks an "evil" wraith using smite evil. Can he do damage without a magic weapon? I suppose the smite evil should be able to affect incorporeal creatures. Would only the smite damage be effective? Maybe all of it, since it is a deity granting the ability?

You could argue it both ways, since, as you say, it is a deity granted power and I'm not sure how I'd rule it. I do like your suggested smite damage being the only damage, but if the paladin can't technically hit the wraith.... This is a tough one.

R-

Simple sanity/logic test for your supposition: All cleric spells are granted by a deity. Do all those spells work against incorporeal and corporeal equally as well?

That is how I approached it.

Yeah, its a divinely given power, so is just as good as any other weapon enchantment, so would work.

There is a distinct difference between being able to hit and being able to injure.

The paladin can use the ability and if they miss, it is wasted.

If they hit, the power works. Therefore, even though they might do no damage with their weapon... the power still works.

Treebore wrote:Yeah, its a divinely given power, so is just as good as any other weapon enchantment, so would work.

What other weapon enchantments work on hands in that manner?

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:Yeah, its a divinely given power, so is just as good as any other weapon enchantment, so would work.

What other weapon enchantments work on hands in that manner?

Who is talking about hands? He was asking about using a non magical weapon. Its a divine power, just like any other spell, so just like Enchanting can bestow a temporary or permanent enchantment on weapons and armor, the Paladins ability bestows a temporary bonus to their attacks and damage, regardless of the weapon they use. In fact, I would argue that ANY spell that adds a magical bonus to attacks would make all attacks "magical" for the purposes of over coming creatures that require such a bonus to even hit. So I would even allow the +1 magical bonus bestowed by the Bless spell to allow them to attack and damage such creatures. Or at the very least, allow the Bless spell to be directly bestowed upon a weapon for such a result. After all, when the bonus is being added to the "Attack Roll", exactly what is it being added to? The characters BtH? Their weapon? What? The rules don't say, so rather than worry about having magic weapons, just let them worry about getting a Bless or Prayer cast for the creatures that require the +1. There are plenty of creatures that require +2 and better to torment the players with.

Treebore wrote:

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:Yeah, its a divinely given power, so is just as good as any other weapon enchantment, so would work.

What other weapon enchantments work on hands in that manner?

Who is talking about hands? He was asking about using a non magical weapon.

Thanks Tree. totally misread it. Too much pain killer for my tooth this a.m.

Treebore wrote:

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:Yeah, its a divinely given power, so is just as good as any other weapon enchantment, so would work.

What other weapon enchantments work on hands in that manner?

Who is talking about hands? He was asking about using a non magical weapon. Its a divine power, just like any other spell, so just like Enchanting can bestow a temporary or permanent enchantment on weapons and armor, the Paladins ability bestows a temporary bonus to their attacks and damage, regardless of the weapon they use. In fact, I would argue that ANY spell that adds a magical bonus to attacks would make all attacks "magical" for the purposes of over coming creatures that require such a bonus to even hit. So I would even allow the +1 magical bonus bestowed by the Bless spell to allow them to attack and damage such creatures. Or at the very least, allow the Bless spell to be directly bestowed upon a weapon for such a result. After all, when the bonus is being added to the "Attack Roll", exactly what is it being added to? The characters BtH? Their weapon? What? The rules don't say, so rather than worry about having magic weapons, just let them worry about getting a Bless or Prayer cast for the creatures that require the +1. There are plenty of creatures that require +2 and better to torment the players with.

+2 to torment with...I love that.

Snoring Rock wrote:

Treebore wrote:

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:Yeah, its a divinely given power, so is just as good as any other weapon enchantment, so would work.

What other weapon enchantments work on hands in that manner?

Who is talking about hands? He was asking about using a non magical weapon. Its a divine power, just like any other spell, so just like Enchanting can bestow a temporary or permanent enchantment on weapons and armor, the Paladins ability bestows a temporary bonus to their attacks and damage, regardless of the weapon they use. In fact, I would argue that ANY spell that adds a magical bonus to attacks would make all attacks "magical" for the purposes of over coming creatures that require such a bonus to even hit. So I would even allow the +1 magical bonus bestowed by the Bless spell to allow them to attack and damage such creatures. Or at the very least, allow the Bless spell to be directly bestowed upon a weapon for such a result. After all, when the bonus is being added to the "Attack Roll", exactly what is it being added to? The characters BtH? Their weapon? What? The rules don't say, so rather than worry about having magic weapons, just let them worry about getting a Bless or Prayer cast for the creatures that require the +1. There are plenty of creatures that require +2 and better to torment the players with.

+2 to torment with...I love that.

Yeah, I am watching a fellow player be tormented in the game we play in. He is a 9th level Fighter and only has a +1 magical weapon, that he is Specialized in, and we have been coming up against creatures that have needed +2 or better, so he has had to borrow the Heavy Mace, that he isn't Specialized in, from the Cleric to even fight them. He has found it to be very frustrating. So has the Cleric, because if they come under direct attack, he can only fight with spells.

Side benefit and tangent to this string: The more you allow "temporary" spells to be your plusses to hit those few magic creatures the less full time bonus bloat you get... that +2 or +3 sword is all the time.. so the more you lets spells or powers like the Paladin smite work the less powerful + weapons you need to hand out. Heck the Monk's hands count, so why not the Paladin Smite too.

Another way to avoid bloat is Ex.: +1 to hit for combat purposes but can hit creatures who need as much as +3 magic bonus.

A cestus with an enchantment would work. They are weapons but deal no damage on their own, instead increasing fist damage.

Always fun for a monk.

Another way to hit + protected monsters without resorting to number bloat would be to allow silvered weapons to meet the requirement.

Another option is just to allow characters to empower their weapons based on level. That is, a fighter can make any weapon the equal to a +X weapon (for what can be hit only) at a certain level, like say 8th. At level 11, it goes to +2. Whatever.

Also, for fighters, you could apply weapon specialization to this so that they are considered to be using magical weapons, if wielding the one in which they are specialized, at level 1.

It changes things, sure, but also allows the more powerfully nasty creatures to be used earlier....

I like the silver or silvered weapons get you to +1, mitral to +3 and adamantium (sp) gets you to +5... sorry, I think that's comic worlds.. what the heck is the other rare metal? But anyway, great idea.. value to weapons without bonus to hit.. kind of like iron wood weapons and dark wood and other special but not simply +X weapon or armor.. more flavor, more depth, less bloat... like cold iron against the fey, etc.

I like letting spells enhance weapons as needed because if they are not taken.. the group is at a disadvantage.. retreat and regroup with spell and enough weapons to hit... if every class has the ability then the monsters powers may not be worth it.. but I like the great flow of ideas on this one..

Here's another bent for you.. magic items are (or can be) rare... they also need not be great or utilitarian... meaning.. why are they all long swords and large metal shields or plate mail? Why not +5 dagger (that's an extreme plus, I'd never have or need one over +3 I think)... or a +2 main gauche or +3 coat of plates... magical, heavy but not too high an AC because the starting point is not already at the top. Or Weapons that get bonuses only some of the time... in a full moon, or twice a day on a command word..

Great ideas all, thanks!