Resurrection question

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Should clerics of Norse Mythology be able to cast resurrect`

Yes
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No
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Maybe?
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Total votes: 16

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Dracyian
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Resurrection question

Post by Dracyian »

Resurrection is common across the fantasy game world whether it be video games or table top games but I was having a thought, as I'm currently playing a cleric of Thor who believes in the Nordic Pantheon. Anyways it is more of a wondering than a thought, given that the Norse Mythos places importance upon how one dies whether or not they proceed to Valhalla or to Helheim. Would you grant a cleric of the Norse Pantheon the ability to use resurrect spells?

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Re: Resurrection question

Post by serleran »

No.

But, they could travel to the proper place and appease or fight for the soul of the departed. However, doing so against Valhalla (Odin) would be a tremendous act of evil.

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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Go0gleplex »

serleran wrote:No.

But, they could travel to the proper place and appease or fight for the soul of the departed. However, doing so against Valhalla (Odin) would be a tremendous act of evil.
+1 this.

Maybe assign a quest from Odin to win the right to even petition the soul in question. Test their might and resolve and all that to prove they are worthy.
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Tadhg
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Tadhg »

Yes, absolutely.

You can rule that resurrection can occur during a brief period before the soul would go to Valholl.

You could also say that Thor could have special power or permission (from Odin) to have his clerics perform resurrections before the soul departs.

:)
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Rigon »

I disagree with Rhu, as a follower of the Norse faith, I would refuse to come back if I died in a honorable way, knowing my soul would go to Valhalla.

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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Tadhg »

I'm now thinking about how restrictive it would be for PCs to have spells taken away from them by deities.

I use them heavily in my games, but generally to help PCs.

I would be pretty upset, if my cleric was high enough to cast a resurrect and then have a CK tell me that - "oh, that won't work because Odin is being a dick today!"

So, better worn your player if you decide to restrict!

:P
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Treebore »

ITs a gamer, for me it depends on what the player wants, not what the religion says.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Rigon »

Rhuvein wrote:I'm now thinking about how restrictive it would be for PCs to have spells taken away from them by deities.

I use them heavily in my games, but generally to help PCs.

I would be pretty upset, if my cleric was high enough to cast a resurrect and then have a CK tell me that - "oh, that won't work because Odin is being a dick today!"

So, better worn your player if you decide to restrict!

:P
I don't think all spells should be available to all pantheons equally. I'm just too lazy to make up different spell lists for each one. But as a player of a Norse faithful, I would refuse to return to the body if I died and was on my way to Valhalla.

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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Go0gleplex »

Just go to a cleric of Loki. He doesn't care if he ticks Odin off anymore than he has. In fact, he'd probably do it just FOR ticking Odin off and any of his sheep (ie heroically killed PC).

Tree has a point though. Sort of sucks as a player if you can't continue your character when a valid save is available. Guess the best answer would be "whatever makes the most fun game for the players in question."
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by BudaZoa »

I like how the 2ed Legend and Lore book had given clerics spell access based upon the spheres of influence a deity had.

Not all gods gave a cleric access to the necromancy sphere. Those clerics couldn't pray for raise dead or resurrection spells.
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Dracyian »

Well my thought is as playing the cleric of Thor that if I died in battle and was resurrected and denied entry to Valhalla I'd come back with vengeance and blood lust, however my other thought was if the I was casting it on a party member who died outside of Battle or in a dishonorable manner that I could cast Resurrect with the intention of giving that hero a second chance to die an honorable death in battle for their soul to proceed to Valhalla.

Also on a side note where do souls go if you have a world full of pantheons and they believe in nothing when they die?

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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Treebore »

Dracyian wrote:
Also on a side note where do souls go if you have a world full of pantheons and they believe in nothing when they die?
The Abyss.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Arduin »

IF the "giants" exist on the PCs plane/world and he/she is fighting them I see no problem with the Norse Gods allowing resurrection so that the battle against those foes can continue...

Although, I cannot see a real Norse warrior WANTING to leave Valhalla (where he fights all day and feasts and wenches all night). Only to start again in the morn'... :o
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Arduin »

Dracyian wrote: Also on a side note where do souls go if you have a world full of pantheons and they believe in nothing when they die?
They go to the plane most closely associated to their alignment. Although, in a standard "D&D" type world, finding a person who really doesn't believe in the Gods would be difficult and they probably exist mainly in wards for the mentally impaired.
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by serleran »

Go0gleplex wrote:Just go to a cleric of Loki.
You could do this and give the raise dead and other kin spells to the illusionist class. It would be like the Voodoo zombie except the dead would only believe they are alive until some condition causes them to break. It would explain how real clerics turn them... they present them with some sort of proof of life/death. If they are broken too hard, perhaps they become draugr or revenants.

Alright. Now I have ideas.

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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Dracyian »

Thank you guys for your opinions I'm thinking if the campaign makes it into those Levels i'm going to talk the CK about the spells and probably pulling them out of the spell pool and finding suitable exchanges, possibly exchanging resurrect for an offensive spell and making true res only be true res if it would align with Thor and Nordic belief to have that person resurrected otherwise it would only a res.

I am going to see how Seskis feels about switching all the flame elemental spells with lightning too which I think makes sense Thor being the god of lightning and thunder not fire per say

I wanted to combine spiritual weapon and flame strike only as lightning strike as a 7th level spell called Thor's Hammer Drop where it would essentially be a electrified hammer dropping from the sky doing 1d6 per level damage half of it lightning the other half magical weapon damage and possibly trading out Res for it

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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Captain_K »

1) This is FUN, big FUN.
2) I will attempt to be fair and polite, forgive me if I am not, it is not my intention.
3) I love this stuff...

OK so much for the "three disclaimers"...

I've been there and had this fight many times, I assume so have many who have replied already or yet to reply. So here is my reply in my order of importance:
a) Its a game, a mutable one, play it as you want, your ideas seem great.
b) Any one who will play a cleric should be rewarded, through my gaming history, there usually are not that many. Your ideas above are great to personalize, "Thor-ize" the basic Cleric. I would warn, do it with the player so you make a Cleric they WANT to keep playing when you're done tweaking it and you can balance into the game. I've failed to do this and lost the Cleric totally - dumb move for "religious/history accuracy".
c) Cleric as a class in early DnD and CnC is sort of a mutt or a Judeo-Christian thing in some aspects AND it covers all of the other things not archaic magical in nature. It has a roll, to heal, to turn snakes to sticks, to make undead go away, to raise dead, you know "religious powers". So tweaking that works, but taking away takes it all away from the game, be careful, unless you have a balancing Cleric handy with all the stuff you forbid the one - these two Clerics in constant partnership - animosity would be great if you can pull it off.
d) Recommendation, have reasons to change OR reasons why the normal rule can be switched. Ex.: Any soul should be able to fight raise or resurrect if they do not want to come back. Same true for the god controlling said soul... so to raise from the dead COULD take all parties, some god to grant his cleric the power, the soul to be willing, and the "soul holder" the will or lack of knowledge to permit.
e) In your case, if the soul is IN Valhalla it might want to stay UNLESS is gets a free pass back no matter what or the gods decide to force him back to do some bidding for them and assume he'll still get back in anyway, just later, the end comes later, there's time (and this is NOT out of character for Odin - the true ruler of Valhalla - not Thor). As noted above, if not in Valhalla, Hel holds the souls tighter then Odin, you will need HER blessing and it can be mighty indeed, but heck that just makes great gaming. She asked that every being and creature cry for the most loved Balder to release his soul from Hel.. when one old Giantess did not.. his soul stayed in Hel. But that's for the great prize of the most loved God's soul.. you're PC's soul should not be that tightly held. In this case, freedom from Hel with a later return would be its own reward to the soul and hope to die so valiantly that Odin would fight for the soul when its time to return to Hel.. again, great gaming...
f) So this brings me back around to Tree and Rigon and others, your game, your rules, do them or not, but a game it is, have fun with it yourself and your players - history is nice, but well, it is religion and gods and such, logic need not apply nor be anything other than divine whim or divine temper or divine silliness.. they are mightily bored most of the time!
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Ancalagon »

No.

Dead is dead.
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Tadhg »

Ancalagon wrote:No.

Dead is dead.
No.

Dead is not dead.

Explain yourself! :?
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Go0gleplex »

Yeah. Dead is not dead. They might only be almost dead as opposed to completely dead which is a totally different thing...better have Miracle Max check 'em out. :lol:
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Captain_K »

If dead is dead, is there a heaven or Gods? When you kill a Zombie are they then just dead, as opposed to undead before? Does the zombie soul go to heaven? So all this is metaphysics and magic, the game is set to allow death, down to a finger nail (or even less up to 130+ years old to boot) "come back" and have lunch with you... so dead could be dead if your comment is Norse with no ability for a house rule for you clerics.. but other than that basic rules is death is NOT permanent if you got the spell and a willing caster.

Hey we did not talk about Reincarnations???? Or do we need a separate line for Norse Druids.. or should I say Celtic Druids of Arawan??? Would they raise or reincarnate or neither since he holds his souls so closely???

In short the PH has no bars to this, have the money, get the Cleric, move on... no big deal. CKs can add bars if they want but the PH has NONE other than don't die of old age, don't be too long dead, have the spell components, lose one point of CON, etc. But no harm to cleric casting spell either.
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Tadhg »

Good thread, good discussion!

But for me, the bottom line with regard to the original question . .

Yes is the answer per the PH!

Any other answer is a house rule!

;)
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by ssfsx17 »

Dracyian wrote: Also on a side note where do souls go if you have a world full of pantheons and they believe in nothing when they die?
In the Forgotten Realms - they go to the Wall of the Faithless, where their souls are slowly turned into solid mass of screaming and tortured stone faces stuck on the wall to keep the "beings of the Lower Planes" (i.e. demons) where they belong.

In Planescape - your soul would probably be cut into pieces according to what you did believe in. For instance, if you believed in the superiority of machines, then you might be claimed by the plane of Mechanus and reincarnated as a lesser Mordron.

In a mystical version of Earth - it's entirely possible that other pantheons could claim your soul without your permission. You might be reincarnated according to the Buddhist tradition, for instance.

So basically, you need to ask your CK about how the setting works.
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Dracyian »

Rhuvein wrote:Good thread, good discussion!

But for me, the bottom line with regard to the original question . .

Yes is the answer per the PH!

Any other answer is a house rule!

;)
+1 this is so true, all very good thoughts, ideas and discussions very interesting read

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Re: Resurrection question

Post by bostoned »

Druids cant cast Raise Dead. So what's the big deal if you decide in Norse campaign that clerics of that Pantheon cant cast Raise Dead.

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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Kayolan »

I wouldn't sweat it. Just go for whatever fantastical events you feel best represent your version and world.

Real world mythologies can be a bit tricky if one tries to accurately portray them. For many aspects, this is a lost cause as most mythologies are not entirely understood, though some have better archaeological records and narratives than others, they are still largely mysteries. To complicate matters further, there is a lot of variety within same mythologies.

For example, the differences between the Prose Edda of Snorri Sturluson (13th century) and the Poetic Edda are significant. The complexities of the source materials allow for great diversity of approach and structure. Whatever sources and conclusions that are drawn most certainly will not be totally in keeping with the actual cult practice and belief. This is true in the real word, much more so in a fantasy world I'm imagining. But hey, it IS a fantasy game and not a dissertation on Viking Age mythology we are talking about here. Your version of Norse mythology is most likely going to vary from others' versions, arguments for accuracy be damned (some even go so far as to take the Marvel approach!).

That being said, I see no reason not to allow Raise Dead/Resurrection in C&C, regardless of the real world mythos involved. You either have plenty of wiggle room as it stands or you can actually just make up whatever suits the milieu. Just keep in mind that it's not the cleric doing the raising, it's the deity(s) involved. You usually have to get approval first!

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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Treebore »

Kayolan wrote:I wouldn't sweat it. Just go for whatever fantastical events you feel best represent your version and world.

Real world mythologies can be a bit tricky if one tries to accurately portray them. For many aspects, this is a lost cause as most mythologies are not entirely understood, though some have better archaeological records and narratives than others, they are still largely mysteries. To complicate matters further, there is a lot of variety within same mythologies.

For example, the differences between the Prose Edda of Snorri Sturluson (13th century) and the Poetic Edda are significant. The complexities of the source materials allow for great diversity of approach and structure. Whatever sources and conclusions that are drawn most certainly will not be totally in keeping with the actual cult practice and belief. This is true in the real word, much more so in a fantasy world I'm imagining. But hey, it IS a fantasy game and not a dissertation on Viking Age mythology we are talking about here. Your version of Norse mythology is most likely going to vary from others' versions, arguments for accuracy be damned (some even go so far as to take the Marvel approach!).

That being said, I see no reason not to allow Raise Dead/Resurrection in C&C, regardless of the real world mythos involved. You either have plenty of wiggle room as it stands or you can actually just make up whatever suits the milieu. Just keep in mind that it's not the cleric doing the raising, it's the deity(s) involved. You usually have to get approval first!
Well said.

Besides, lots of religions, including the largest in the world, have stories about resurrection, coming back from the dead, literally being brought back out of the lands of the dead, etc...
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Lurker »

BudaZoa wrote:I like how the 2ed Legend and Lore book had given clerics spell access based upon the spheres of influence a deity had.

Not all gods gave a cleric access to the necromancy sphere. Those clerics couldn't pray for raise dead or resurrection spells.

+1 on that !
bostoned wrote:Druids cant cast Raise Dead. So what's the big deal if you decide in Norse campaign that clerics of that Pantheon cant cast Raise Dead.
And that too.

However, I know those are just my personal preference and would never force that onto someone else's game. So, I have to default to it is your game make it fit your view of your game world.



As for discussions of myth ... I can't remember, does Norse have instances where common/non-divine individuals are resurrected? What about the gods/goddesses themselves. I know most of even the gods will die in the final battle, so does that allow for resurrection as part of their myth.
Go0gleplex wrote:Yeah. Dead is not dead. They might only be almost dead as opposed to completely dead which is a totally different thing...better have Miracle Max check 'em out. :lol:


Ohhhhhhhh, you beat me to it! Great quote from a great movie!
Arduin wrote:
...

Although, I cannot see a real Norse warrior WANTING to leave Valhalla (where he fights all day and feasts and wenches all night). Only to start again in the morn'... :o
Rgr that, and something like that came up back in Rigon's FR game last year. The NPC paladin that was the party's benefactor was assassinated. We adventured to bring the ones behind the murder to justice. Once we did, we assume he (along with his wife and son who had also been murdered) would be resurrected. However, their souls wished to remain in the afterlife having reached "heaven" .

As for my playing history, I can't think of any time my characters have ever been resurrected (and I know they have never been reincarnated).

I looked at it like Ancalagon said. Dead is dead. Plus, the character either died from my stupidity (so I needed to learn a lesson from the death) or from just poor luck (and why bring back someone so unlucky) or the death was so epic that resurrecting the character would have spoiled the event.
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Ancalagon »

Rhuvein wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:No.

Dead is dead.
No.

Dead is not dead.

Explain yourself! :?
With regard to the OP's statements of a cleric of Thor believing in the Norse pantheon and the importance the Norse Mythos places upon how one dies whether or not they proceed to Valhalla or to Helheim... it made me think of other belief systems for comparison on the issue of resurrection / raise dead / returning from the afterlife (heaven / hell / what have you).

In the Christian beliefs, Lazarus and Jesus returned from the dead. In the Egyptian beliefs, Osiris was resurrected, returning from the dead more than once. In the Greek beliefs, Persephone was able to enter and leave the underworld, a form of afterlife if you will.

I'm unaware of any stories of resurrection / raising the dead in the Norse beliefs. If anyone has such knowledge then please share. 8-) So with that being said, IMO, resurrection would not be an option with the Norse gods and Dead is Dead.

YMMV.
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Re: Resurrection question

Post by Captain_K »

Unless the beer has addled my brain, Ancalgon, the answer is YES. In Norse mythos Balder could have been easily brought back from the dead. Hel had to give up the soul and it would be done.. but her terms were not met. So by inference of this story raise dead (or return from the dead) with permission of Hel was OK. Balder does comeback after Ragnarök. If I recall correctly he was dead, killed by Loki and a mistletoe dart so when he comes back, that's raising. Now he comes back more or less on his own after Hel's death or loss of domain... so not some priest raising the dead. But heck, Jesus raising Lazarus is hardly "just some high level cleric" either nor is Jesus/god's raising of Jesus, just some priest. Same for Osiris. So your examples are all divinities doing the act, not clerics. So the Norse example is all divinities acts of bringing back the dead. So one example in Egyptian, two in Christian, none in Judaism, and two in Norse. That firmly plants Norse in the "raise dead business" when you consider Baldr and Hodr BOTH coming back from the dead.

In the end, its a game, it should be rare and expensive and have all sorts of fun strings attached, but don't stop it from happening when it makes sense.. that's what I'm making the composite answer with my own spin.

Here from Wiki on what happens after Ragnarök...
Chapter 53 begins with Gangleri asking if any of the gods will survive, and if there will be anything left of the earth or the sky. High responds that the earth will appear once more from the sea, beautiful and green, where self-sown crops grow. The field Iðavöllr exists where Asgard once was, and, there, untouched by Surtr's flames, Víðarr and Váli reside. Now possessing their father's hammer Mjolnir, Thor's sons Móði and Magni will meet them there, and, coming from Hel, Baldr and Höðr also arrive. Together, they all sit and recount memories, later finding the gold game pieces the Æsir once owned. Völuspá stanza 51 is then quoted.[37]

High reveals that two humans, Líf and Lífþrasir, will have also survived the destruction by hiding in the wood Hoddmímis holt. These two survivors consume the morning dew for sustenance, and from their descendants the world will be repopulated. Vafþrúðnismál stanza 45 is then quoted. The personified sun, Sól, will have a daughter at least as beautiful as she, and this daughter will follow the same path as her mother. Vafþrúðnismál stanza 47 is quoted, and so ends the foretelling of Ragnarök in Gylfaginning.[38]
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