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Since we have some people that are using FR as their campaign world I thought it may be nice to have an area we can work on converting spells, magic items and NPCs to C&C standards. I am doing this at RK and the initial thread may be found HERE.

Anyone interested chim in here or there.
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I'm going to try to work up a list of NPC's that I want to translate into C&C by starting with just Class and level. Like Drizzit being a 16th level ranger. I'm not too worried about actual stats yet. I just had been going through my FRCS and saw that it shouldn't be too hard to convert or rework WOTC's stats into something workable for C&C and loose the munchiness of some of the Iconic characters. Mainly making them a bit more sensible.
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Simply converting them to a C&C class should strip out most of the munchiness.

If I were converting Drizzt, I would use my house rules (see the sig) to make him a 16th level Ranger (Primes in Str & Dex) and a 0th level Magic-User (to reflect his basic training at the Drow Academy). I think his favored enemy would be goblinoids.
New House Rule Idea: Same Prime Conversion.

This is something I just thought of. Drizzt was trained as a pure fighter, but he "became" a Ranger once he left Menzobarranzen (sp?). By C&C RAW, this is impossible, as both Fighter and Ranger are Strength Prime. Of course you could just handwave this away and say "Oh, well, he was always a scout leader for the Drow raiding parties; so he was always a Ranger. Sort of." That might suit you, but here's my idea:

You want to dual-class into a class you're already Prime in. Besides Fighter --> Ranger, you could also imagine a Knight admitted to an order of Paladins, or a common Thief apprenticed to an Assassin. I think I would allow a one-time "conversion", where your present class "freezes" and is slowly replaced by the new class. I'm not sure how this would work, but one this is for sure: you can never advance in the old class again; similar to how AD&D treated dual-classing.

You could say that once the new class equals the old class in levels; *poof*, the old class disappears. I'm not sure that makes sense from a verisimilitude angle though. Why would you forget the old stuff?

Or maybe we just ignore that "no Multi-classing into same Prime-Class" rule ...
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Why not using the AD&D 1st edition version? In FR5 Savage Frontier Drizz't is simply a 10th level Ranger, nothing unmanageable by plain C&C.

Well, on Drizzt, I think the best version was in the Menzoberranzan boxed set. In the House Do'Urden booklet (page 6 and 7, I'm looking at it right now). It's a little over the top, so you could cut that down, it's the most accurate as to his abilities in the books. It doesn't follow the "normal" rules for PCs. So you can straight conver it, or just make him a plain old Ranger. Remember, the later write ups of Drizzt take his backround into consideration, while the version where he is a 10th Level Ranger, don't (that is because that version was the 1st Edition one based on only the Icewind Dale Trilogy).

I'd say straight conversion from the House Do'Urden book.

Or

Just make him a 16th Level Ranger.

rabindranath72 wrote:
Why not using the AD&D 1st edition version? In FR5 Savage Frontier Drizz't is simply a 10th level Ranger, nothing unmanageable by plain C&C.

I think, what has to be decided when converting FR stuff is: what are you going to convert? Just 1st Edition stuff? 2nd Edition too?

phadeout wrote:
I think, what has to be decided when converting FR stuff is: what are you going to convert? Just 1st Edition stuff? 2nd Edition too?

Not much point in converting 1e stuff. You can do that in your head, on the fly, 98% of the time. Even 2e is pretty easy. I was assuming that folks were looking for ways to convert 3e materials, since that has the most work to do.

Does anyone think that Drizzt should have a level or two of Thief? I recall that he has used thieves tools to pick locks occasionally (although he claimed no great skill at it), and did "sleight of hand" stuff that I would say was a use of the Pick Pocket ability. You can still make that work in C&C (using the Options & Skills dual-classing rules), since he's clearly Dex-Prime.

I would say: CG Elf (Pr:Str,Dex) Rng 16/Thf 2/M-U 0. His (clearly) 19 Dex off-sets the penalty he takes from figthing with two scimatars. My only recognition of his "sub-race" (a rule not supported by C&C, and one I strongly disfavor) would be to swap out Twilight Vision for Deepvision.

I also think, when we post these conversions, that we "suggest" house rules that might be helpful when playing / converting a particular character, item or spell. For instance:
Possible House Rules for Interpreting Drizzt:

0. Elven Weapon Bonus. Although not on the list, I would allow his Elven +1 BtH bonus to apply to his scimitars. I call this "House Rule #0" because I think any CK would allow this without any trouble. It barely registers as a house rule.

1. Weapon Finesse: When fighting with melee weapons that do 1d6 damage or less, the character may use his Dex modifier (instead of Str) to modify his BtH roll. Note that when fighting with two weapons, Dex counts "twice", once to offset the penalty and once again as a bonus. A character with a +2 Dex mod then would have a +1, -2 BtH modifier when attacking with two weapons. Drizzt has a +3,+0 modifier when attacking with two Scimitars (before his racial bonus).

2. Same-Prime Dual Classing: There is no rule against dual-classing in a class you already have a Prime in. Drizzt is was originally trained as a plain-vanilla Fighter at the Drow Academy. His weapon of specialization is the scimitar.

3. Combat Dominance Alternatives. Many folks have pointed out the weakness of Combat Dominance in the RAW, and have offered combat dominance alternatives (a "CDA"). Combined with house-rule #2 above, perhaps Drizzt advanced far enough as a Fighter while in the Underdark to choose a CDA which would be appropriate for this fighting style. Using my house rules (see signature), Drizzt would clearly be a "Blade Dancer", whereas Cattie-Brie would be an "Archer" and Bruenor and Wulfgar would be "Reavers." CDA's proposed by other people may also be appropriate.

If you used all three of my House Rules, Drizzt would receive a +5, +2 BtH when dual wielding Scimitars (before his any bonus for magic or his Ranger level), and he does 1d6+5 damage (before any bonus for magic).

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I presented the above in the order I did for a reason. I think that HR #0 and #1 are the most easily adopted of the four, while HR #2 and #3 are progressively further from the "core" RAW.
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Here's a story a gonard gave me on how 2nd ed. AD&D "ruined" gaming.

"Back in my day, if you wanted Gandlaf as an NPC in your game, you made Gandalf. Now adays you kids want to stat him out to be a 18th level wizard/Bard/Ranger."

He never gave details on how he just "made Galdalf." I'm assuming he simply used PC levels as Hit Dice and gave him anything he thought fit, including enough "kicka$$ery" to ensure rowdy players couldn't take the NPC on in a fight. Making NPC more like monsters than following PC creation guidlines.

I wonder, would it be simpler to just make NPCs as humanoids with HD and special abilites as compared to making them like another PC. (I know one game, Savage Worlds, that encourages this method.)

anglefish wrote:
He never gave details on how he just "made Galdalf." I'm assuming he simply used PC levels as Hit Dice and gave him anything he thought fit, including enough "kicka$$ery" to ensure rowdy players couldn't take the NPC on in a fight. Making NPC more like monsters than following PC creation guidlines.

I wonder, would it be simpler to just make NPCs as humanoids with HD and special abilites as compared to making them like another PC.

This actually is what I do for a lot of NPC's. I wouldn't bother to stat out Gandalf because he isn't human. He's a "monster" in the same sense that a Gold Dragon or an Eladrian is. If he's a Magic-User on top of that, that's just a bonus, but it's likely that certain (most?) magic-user restrictions may not apply to him.

Drizzt, however, is clearly an adventurer in the same sense as the PC's. He's a PC race and class, and his "life" reads like a really kick-ass campaign journal. I think he's perfectly fair game for statting up. I would also be comfortable statting up the Heroes of the Lance, Huma Dragonbane, Bruenor Battlehammer, Kelemvor & Co. (pre-godhood), and myriad other "adventurers."

I would not stat up anyone who is not an adventurer (such as the local silk merchant or King So-and-so, who never fought in anything more dangerous than a jousting tourney), not a PC race (e.g., Gandalf or Astinus of Palanthus), or was formerly an adventurer but has somehow "moved beyond" (e.g., Pug and Tomas of Crydee or Macros the Black, also Elminster and the Simbul).

D&D 3.x tried to give you a more systemized means for statting things up with the "template" system, but I think that was a turn for the worse. I would not a Gandalf Template or even a "Chosen of Mystra" template. If I want Gandalf, I just "make Gandalf."
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irda ranger wrote:
This actually is what I do for a lot of NPC's. I wouldn't bother to stat out Gandalf because he isn't human. He's a "monster" in the same sense that a Gold Dragon or an Eladrian is. If he's a Magic-User on top of that, that's just a bonus, but it's likely that certain (most?) magic-user restrictions may not apply to him.

I wouldn't bother to stat out Drizzt because he isn't human. He's a "monster" in the same sense that a Gold Dragon or any other dark elf is. If he's a ranger on top of that, that's just a bonus, but it's likely that certain (most?) ranger restrictions may not apply to him.

Yeah, I'm being a bit "tongue in cheek" there but as you see, the same argument could be given for why not to stat Drizzt.

I can see why people have their preferences. I personally prefer not to give NPC's class write-ups. They're done just like any other monster entry. Makes it easier if I need to customize them or if they dont quite fit a class.

DangerDwarf wrote:
I wouldn't bother to stat out Drizzt because he isn't human. He's a "monster" in the same sense that a Gold Dragon or any other dark elf is. If he's a ranger on top of that, that's just a bonus, but it's likely that certain (most?) ranger restrictions may not apply to him.

Yeah, I'm being a bit "tongue in cheek" there but as you see, the same argument could be given for why not to stat Drizzt.

No, actually, it's not even remotely the same. I spoke poorly when I said that Gandalf wasn't human. That's true, but what I meant was that he wasn't a PC race. Elves are. That aside, Drizzt was clearly written with the AD&D rules in mind (it is a Forgotten Realms novel, after all) and AD&D was written specifically to allow for people to play adventurers like Drizzt and go on adventures the likes of which Drizzt went on. None of that is true for Gandalf. Nowhere in any D&D PHB Intro (where they discuss "What D&D is") does it say "This is a game that allows you to pretend to me an immortal messenger from the gods masquerading as a humble wizard." No, it says "You are a PC race & class adventurer." Just. Like. Drizzt.

Frankly, I don't even like most of the R.A. Salvatore novels. They're boring, and the philosophizing is pretty light stuff once you've read Socrates or Thomas Aquinas. Drizzt & Co. are clearly DM-favored munchkin powergamers who are never presented with a situation that a couple quick scimatar chops can't solve. Somehow they've gotten through 15 levels of adventuring without ever needing a wizard or cleric. I'd never be content with such "kids glove" treatment from my DM.

But they are all most definately PC race & class combos, written specifically with the D&D rules in mind. So was Sturm Brightblade. So was Raistlin (to start with). So was .. whoever those people were in the Dark Sun and Spelljammer novels.

C&C is great for not fostering over-reliance on rules, templates, feats, skills, prestige classes and infinite splat books - too much of that boxes you in more than it helps; but there's a fine line between "loose structure" and "pure make-believe."

That whole (and probably unecessary) rant aside, I can think of two very good reasons for statting up Drizzt:

1. The C&C rules are such a joy to use, that is makes me giddy with happiness that I can fully stat up a 16th level NPC (possibly with 2-3 dual-classes), without cutting any corners, in less than 5 minutes. He's feature-complete, easy to make, and its fun to do. This may sound like a personal reason, but I think we're all here because we all feel the same way.

2. At least once a campaign someone says "You know, I really want to play a character like Drizzt (or Raistlin, or whatever)." It's a much more satisfying response (for both you and the player) to say "Great, here's how you do it." rather than "Sorry dude, he's a special case. Regular old PC's like you need not apply." (Clearly, this can be taken too far: no one should get to play the last son of Krypton while everyone else has to play LN Hum Ftr 1, but the dream of being "like Drizzt" one day should be achievable.)
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Gandalf was more of a plot device than actual character. Of course one could argue that the function of any character is also to move the story along...

WOW Great stuff!
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Very nice list of equipment there. Got any prices or are they left to us to tag
L.S.

PS. Very intererested in this FR thread, especially the panzy Drizzt DOnt get me wrong, read all of Salvatores Drizzt books, several times, but he had become, well, a panzy! I think R.A. is realizing this and moving the hero and the others in a new or old direction, so to speak. (Or maybe Wizards wants it to coincide with the new FR in 4 E
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Well if serleran is you who is not you now but serleran but was serleran then, then yeah I am referring to you, or maybe the other you
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I went back over this thread and saw it had a link to the old Raven's Keep. The new RK doesn't have the work I originally did for FR but This Link is what I am working on with FR now. You may find it interesting and could find it useful.
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