Troll Lord Games

So there's an entire spell in the PHB dedicated to the creation of Holy Water (which is phenomenally cheap to do if you have a cleric with a few days' down time, so I wonder why it costs 20 GP to buy a flask, too).

But then, I look, and nowhere in the PHB or M&T does it say exactly what holy water does. In d20/3.5 (as well as, iirc, AD&D 1 and 2), it does 1d6 damage to undead per flask as a grenade-like weapon.

But I cannot find anywhere in C&C where it says what it does. I'm running Shadows of the Halfling Hall right now, and my cleric decided to go to the temple and stock up on holy water to help deal with the zombies. I told him, "I don't think holy water damages undead." He rightly then said, "Then what does it do? There's an entire 'Bless Water' spell to create it."

Can someone point me to the rule where it says what holy water does? As of now, I'm going with the long-running d6/flask tradition...but an official rule would be nice, and it's an oversight that might need to be added to the errata.

The 1d6 to Undead thingy sounds like a great rule.

I think that I will make it "official" in my game.
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We also noticed yesterday that size has no effect on AC or To-Hit rolls in C&C; we imported the +1 for small and -1 for large from d20 as well.

The Grey Elf wrote:
We also noticed yesterday that size has no effect on AC or To-Hit rolls in C&C; we imported the +1 for small and -1 for large from d20 as well.

I added a +1 AC bonus, but only for gnomes and halfling PCs.
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Maliki wrote:
I added a +1 AC bonus, but only for gnomes and halfling PCs.

Well, despite their height, I'm inclined to treat dwarves as medium creatures, due to their girth. They tend to be extremely broad and husky, which makes them not as small in stature as gnomes and halflings.

The Grey Elf wrote:
Can someone point me to the rule where it says what holy water does? As of now, I'm going with the long-running d6/flask tradition...but an official rule would be nice, and it's an oversight that might need to be added to the errata.

I've been using 2d4 per splash according to the Monster & Treasure free download under the skeleton description. I asked about this sometime last year on the old boards and most seem to think this was reasonable and would apply to most if not all undead.

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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

I wonder if information on this could make it into the 3rd printing.

The Grey Elf wrote:
Well, despite their height, I'm inclined to treat dwarves as medium creatures, due to their girth. They tend to be extremely broad and husky, which makes them not as small in stature as gnomes and halflings.

Same here, I treat dwarves as medium creatures as well.
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Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

Rhuvein wrote:
I've been using 2d4 per splash according to the Monster & Treasure free download under the skeleton description. I asked about this sometime last year on the old boards and most seem to think this was reasonable and would apply to most if not all undead.

2d4 sounds good to me.
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Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

Holy water tastes pretty good. It's better than getting giardia.

Fiff.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

The Grey Elf wrote:
So there's an entire spell in the PHB dedicated to the creation of Holy Water (which is phenomenally cheap to do if you have a cleric with a few days' down time, so I wonder why it costs 20 GP to buy a flask, too).

Most people don't have a cleric with a few days of down time.
I would also imagine that part of the cost is to prevent paranoid adventurers from constantly cleaning out the church's stock.
More seriously, I think the responses in this thread are all pretty good solutions.
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He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

Rhuvein wrote:
I've been using 2d4 per splash according to the Monster & Treasure free download under the skeleton description. I asked about this sometime last year on the old boards and most seem to think this was reasonable and would apply to most if not all undead.

What free download?

Do you have a link and can you post it?

EDIT: Found my copy of the download ( not the link it came from)

Does anybody else think that C&C is too adaptable. That is ,like, the 3rd "monster" download that I have and all have slightly different information in them. Maybe it is time for one "official" version to "rule them all".
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pineappleleader wrote:
Does anybody else think that C&C is too adaptable. That is ,like, the 3rd "monster" download that I have and all have slightly different information in them. Maybe it is time for one "official" version to "rule them all".

The beauty of C&C is that it BEGS to be houseruled. That's why I've created my own rule set using C&C as its core.

On page 53 of that ruleset (AD&D 3rd Edition) I note that holy water does 2d4 damage on a direct hit or 2 points of splash damage.

Fiffergrund wrote:
Most people don't have a cleric with a few days of down time.

Nonsense. Every group has a few days down time here and there. You always take a day or two to rest and recover after an adventure, there is travel time between adventures...it's very hard to swallow the idea of a group that is *constantly* occupied.

Quote:
I would also imagine that part of the cost is to prevent paranoid adventurers from constantly cleaning out the church's stock.

No doubt that's why churches charge that much. My point is, why would they dedicate a spell (requiring the cleric to waste a spell slot daily on it) to something that has no in-game effect?

Quote:
More seriously, I think the responses in this thread are all pretty good solutions.

Indeed. In fact, and I don't know why this didn't occur to me Monday, I just checked the 1st ed. AD&D DMG, and in there holy water does 2-7 damage (or 1d6+1) to undead. I think I'll go with that.

pineappleleader wrote:
Do you have a link and can you post it?

Here's the link to the old site, if anyone is interested in the monster.pdf! http://trolllord.com/files/monsters.pdf
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

The Grey Elf wrote:
But then, I look, and nowhere in the PHB or M&T does it say exactly what holy water does. In d20/3.5 (as well as, iirc, AD&D 1 and 2), it does 1d6 damage to undead per flask as a grenade-like weapon.

It makes the target say "Holy ^%$! I'm wet!"
Anyhow.. Steve says info on this will be on the CK screens and in the third printing.
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Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
Anyhow.. Steve says info on this will be on the CK screens and in the third printing.

Call me a worrier, but this should already be on the CK screens... *gulp!* heeh...
.......................................Omote

FPQ
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Omote wrote:
Call me a worrier, but this should already be on the CK screens... *gulp!* heeh...
.......................................Omote

FPQ

*chuckles* Stop picking on my tenses. I haven't seen the screen myself. I m just relaying what Steve said was on em. ^_~`
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

*pick* *pick *pick* Yeah, sorry 'bout that. It's a thing I got you see... I just don't know when to stop picking, and honestly, Pete, you make it too easy.
........................................Omote

FPQ
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Omote wrote:
*pick* *pick *pick* Yeah, sorry 'bout that. It's a thing I got you see... I just don't know when to stop picking, and honestly, Pete, you make it too easy.
........................................Omote

FPQ

*smiles* I'm nice that way. I find that every time I make it hard for critics they go hide behind password protected message forums.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

csperkins1970 wrote:
The beauty of C&C is that it BEGS to be houseruled. That's why I've created my own rule set using C&C as its core.

Wasn't complaining. I'm sure it will be corrected in the next printing.

If you read through this thread there are at least 3, or is it 4 semi-official answers to the question. (All of them correct ). Just pick the one your group likes and continue to march.
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The Blood of Dragons flows through my veins!

Prepare to meet your DOOM!

Kobold battle cry

Quote:
Nonsense. Every group has a few days down time here and there. You always take a day or two to rest and recover after an adventure, there is travel time between adventures...it's very hard to swallow the idea of a group that is *constantly* occupied.

I don't think I made my snark clear enough.
I meant most *people*, not most *adventuring parties*. While clerics are common in parties, they are most certainly a limited resource to the population at large, and therefore the ability to make holy water is a limited resource in that population.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

Fiff is spot on with this last comment. There could be plenty of acolyte type clerics, but how many people in the general population actually have the ability to channel their gods power through them? This is the cleric that we know and love, and they should indeed be a rare commodity.

............................................Omote

FPQ
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Fiff & Omote I completely agree. I hate to see a place where every hamelet & village has a whole slew of temples with all kinds of clerics & such.
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In my games there are always lots of temples or other places of worship. However, people who can generate divine miracles (read clerics), are not always available. In these terms temples like this serve only as gathering halls and places of worship.

............................................Omote

FPQ
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Fiffergrund wrote:
I don't think I made my snark clear enough.
I meant most *people*, not most *adventuring parties*. While clerics are common in parties, they are most certainly a limited resource to the population at large, and therefore the ability to make holy water is a limited resource in that population.

Actually, I came off a LOT harsher than I intended to. Sure, what you're saying is 100% true...still doesn't answer why you'd from a game rules perspective (especially in such a rules light game) include an entire spell for the creation of something that has no listed game effect; why would a Cleric ever memorize it in game?

I expect it was an oversight; hence why it'll be in the CK Screen and third printing
Another thing I noticed: Vampires are listed as having Turn Resistance, and there's no explanation of how that works.

The rule was supposed to be in the PHB but got left out (twice!)

It is on the screens

Mac Golden wrote:
The rule was supposed to be in the PHB but got left out (twice!)

It is on the screens

Don't suppose you'd care to post it here, so we can have the rule till we get the screen? I'm using an undead-heavy setting now...

Nelzie wrote:
The 1d6 to Undead thingy sounds like a great rule.

I think that I will make it "official" in my game.

I use 1d8 versus undead per vial...same damage as a cure light wounds spell.

If you want an alternate rule, a normal, non-silver weapon doused with a vial before a swing could be permitted to hit an undead that normally requires a magic weapon to be hit.

Brian
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Quote:
I use 1d8 versus undead per vial...same damage as a cure light wounds spell.

If you want an alternate rule, a normal, non-silver weapon doused with a vial before a swing could be permitted to hit an undead that normally requires a magic weapon to be hit.

Brian

I like both ideas.

I've also let a party keep at bay an intelligent undead after splashing them. "splash the weight with a good dose and he backs up and growls but is hesitant to rush in for round 2. That wet stuff sure burns & just how much more of it does the tasty bits of warm flesh have..." not as good as a clerics turning but helpful in a pinch
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
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