Troll Lord Games

One thing I'll say about old school d&d dragons: they were runable.

But C&C dragons? Whoa, they really live up to their fearsome reputations.

POW-ER-FUL.

Given the choice, I'd rather the way C&C does them. But once again, whoa. Dragons are now rare by necessity, largely for the simple fact that cks don't want to utterly annihilate their parties and thus destroy their campaigns with their use.

Even a properly run D&D dragon would decimate small armies by itself. The way I ran them, if the dragon had more than 1/4 of the total HD of the party, it ended in a TPK unless the PCs were REALLY on the ball with tactics and lucky on the dice.

I have not had the pleasure of running a C&C dragon as yet, but I imagine from your comments slimy I am going to thoroughly enjoy having them wipe out kingdoms.

And yet I don't think they're deadly enough.

I always thought 1E dragons were ridiculously weak. 5-7 HD for White Dragons? My view is there is no way a massively strong and powerful creature like a dragon would ever be a pet, like the Frost and Fire Giants had them in the G1-G3 series. Most CJs I've read on various sites have both the White & Red dragons being handled quickly and with little trouble. That just shouldn't happen. C&C dragons fit my mold much better, although I think the breath weapon 3x/day is a little weak.

maximus wrote:I always thought 1E dragons were ridiculously weak. 5-7 HD for White Dragons? My view is there is no way a massively strong and powerful creature like a dragon would ever be a pet, like the Frost and Fire Giants had them in the G1-G3 series. Most CJs I've read on various sites have both the White & Red dragons being handled quickly and with little trouble. That just shouldn't happen. C&C dragons fit my mold much better, although I think the breath weapon 3x/day is a little weak.

A lot of it boils down to how you run them Max. A 2 HD red dragon is close to more than a party of (4) 4th level avg PCs can handle alone (I dang near TPK'd the group in the first two rounds). A 5 HD white dragon should give a similar party of 9th level avg PCs a serious case of the sweats and heebie jeebies, especially if on its home turf. Unfortunately most folks just run the combat as breath 1st round; bite, claw, claw; repeat for three rounds until breath again.

My dragons get six physical attacks, use magic items in their horde sometimes, generate winds with their wings, and have their lairs set up to readily take advantage of what spell abilities they may have with devastating effect against intruders. I have also had them literally smack boulders into PC formations to break them up or put them into a kill zone for max breath effect. All in how you run them. Treat them like a generic monster and they go down like a generic monster. Make use of their awesomeness to the max and even Demi-gods run scared.

Go0gleplex wrote:

maximus wrote:I always thought 1E dragons were ridiculously weak. 5-7 HD for White Dragons? My view is there is no way a massively strong and powerful creature like a dragon would ever be a pet, like the Frost and Fire Giants had them in the G1-G3 series. Most CJs I've read on various sites have both the White & Red dragons being handled quickly and with little trouble. That just shouldn't happen. C&C dragons fit my mold much better, although I think the breath weapon 3x/day is a little weak.

A lot of it boils down to how you run them Max. A 2 HD red dragon is close to more than a party of (4) 4th level avg PCs can handle alone (I dang near TPK'd the group in the first two rounds). A 5 HD white dragon should give a similar party of 9th level avg PCs a serious case of the sweats and heebie jeebies, especially if on its home turf. Unfortunately most folks just run the combat as breath 1st round; bite, claw, claw; repeat for three rounds until breath again.

My dragons get six physical attacks, use magic items in their horde sometimes, generate winds with their wings, and have their lairs set up to readily take advantage of what spell abilities they may have with devastating effect against intruders. I have also had them literally smack boulders into PC formations to break them up or put them into a kill zone for max breath effect. All in how you run them. Treat them like a generic monster and they go down like a generic monster. Make use of their awesomeness to the max and even Demi-gods run scared.

I agree that it is definitely how you play the dragon, however in the scenario you refer to above, a 9th level MU is sure to throw a 9HD fireball. The 5HD white dragon doesn't stand much of a chance, even at max hit points. I feel like I'm missing something, but not sure what.

Anything that's several hundred years old and as smart as we are would be prepared... likely not risking much... but PCs like dragons can be dangerous things.

As the saying goes, "Sometimes the Dragon wins".. ok, more than sometimes... or no one would fear them.

I like PCs to fear 500 year old vampires, dragons, and anything else with history.

Personally, I like giving my really big and center stage "bad guys" a way to retreat and threaten again.

maximus wrote:I always thought 1E dragons were ridiculously weak. 5-7 HD for White Dragons? My view is there is no way a massively strong and powerful creature like a dragon would ever be a pet, like the Frost and Fire Giants had them in the G1-G3 series. Most CJs I've read on various sites have both the White & Red dragons being handled quickly and with little trouble. That just shouldn't happen. C&C dragons fit my mold much better, although I think the breath weapon 3x/day is a little weak.

it kind of made the game. Defeating a Dragon at level 3 is kind of cool. 10th level+ was more or less epic levels in 1E.

3E onwards kind of removed Dragons from the scenethe game is named after. And by removed I mean putting them in for higher level PCs to fight.

Zardnaar wrote:3E onwards kind of removed Dragons from the scenethe game is named after. And by removed I mean putting them in for higher level PCs to fight.

Yip

The trick for the mage is being able to get their spell off. And white dragons are hit and run artists, usually while flying. And as Cap said, the dragon has likely prepared a few surprises in their lair. Granted the white is the least intelligent of the true dragons but even they have tactics, such as a lot of loose ice ready to be wing blown into enemies like bullets. Or sections of icy ceiling ready to drop from over areas that would otherwise seem to offer perfect cover from an angry dragon. At the end of the day, the question is; How badly do you want to mangle your players. WEG And the instances I am referring to were 2e games.