Troll Lord Games

Hey all,

As part of my upcoming (1st ever!) C&C campaign, I wanted to included a couple of different classes, due to several aspects of my campaign I think they'll work well with. Has anyone developed a Noble or Scholar class?
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I don't think that nobles and scholars warrant a character class. They respectively are a social status and an occupation. Why not have a slave class and a blacksmith class then? What kind of abilities would be granted to such classes? In my opinion, character classes should be reserved for occupations related to adventuring. You can make a noble who also happens to be a level something fighter and have another noble be a 0th level NPC depending on the situation.

Just my 2 cp...
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Metathiax wrote:
I don't think that nobles and scholars warrant a character class. They respectively are a social status and an occupation. Why not have a slave class and a blacksmith class then? What kind of abilities would be granted to such classes? In my opinion, character classes should be reserved for occupations related to adventuring. You can make a noble who also happens to be a level something fighter and have another noble be a 0th level NPC depending on the situation.

Just my 2 cp...

I see where you're coming from, but in my experience, and for my sort of game I'm running (definitely with some A Game of Thrones elements to them), there are reasons for having them. Plenty of nobles COULD be Knights, Fighters, what have you, but plenty of others would only be raised in a world of diplomacy, intrigue, social interaction, and statecraft, with perhaps a much smaller catalogue of arms training. As for a Scholar, I know that both Bards & Clerics often function as the Smart Guy/Learned One of the group, but again, there are also scholars without the musical/carousing training or religious background. The Scholar would likely have none of the special abilities of a Bard or Cleric, but would definitely have some big bonuses when it came to overall knowledge.

Like I said, I do see where you're coming from, but this is something that I am interested in incorporating in a campaign. I guess if it isn't out there, I might mess around with it myself...

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Quote:
Like I said, I do see where you're coming from, but this is something that I am interested in incorporating in a campaign. I guess if it isn't out there, I might mess around with it myself...

Have you considered the Yggsburgh secondary skills system? It might do the trick for a campaign like yours.
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"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
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I think one of the Dragonlance converters had a Noble class. Probably Rabindarath or Dragonhelm. I don't see a point to the class. Bards already are scholars.

Previous discussion of this can be found:
HERE

Metathiax wrote:
Have you considered the Yggsburgh secondary skills system? It might do the trick for a campaign like yours.

That's definitely something I'm considering for it--thank you, though!!

serleran wrote:
I think one of the Dragonlance converters had a Noble class. Probably Rabindarath or Dragonhelm. I don't see a point to the class. Bards already are scholars.

Ah, but not all scholars are bards.

DangerDwarf wrote:
Previous discussion of this can be found:
HERE

Thanks--I'll take a peek at that as I get time.
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Quote:
Ah, but not all scholars are bards.

Yeah, they're NPCs, or sages, making them wizards... or... NPCs.

serleran wrote:
Yeah, they're NPCs, or sages, making them wizards... or... NPCs.

Unless someone wants to play one...at which point they'd be a....PC.

I'm going to see what I can to with the Yggsburgh 2ndary skill system...I think it might work for this sort of thing...

EDIT: Hey, that's what C&C's all about--adding what you want, getting rid of what you don't, and playing/running a system/game you're happy with. I'll work it.
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I like the idea of a noble class either as a PC or NPC. I see the scholar more of an NPC. i would only work out a class if a player was planning on running it as class.

For the noble I would allow only a limited weapon selection and not allow non metal armor (Chain shirt at least),I would use a d6 (possible a d8) for HPs. BTH as cleric or rogue. Lots of starting gold and a lot of influence when dealing with NPCs.

I don't like giving NPCs PC classes just to make them above normal. IMHO PC classes require too much training just to hand them out. Adding a couple of HD and maybe a special ability or two suits my tastes much better.

For special NPCs I don't use a class I just make them as I see them.

Duke Roland Human Male HD3d6 HP13 BTH +2 Primes wis, chr, str.

I'd decide on his armor and weapon and jot these down and any exceptinal stats.
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Maliki wrote:
For special NPCs I don't use a class I just make them as I see them.

Duke Roland Human Male HD3d6 HP13 BTH +2 Primes wis, chr, str.

I'd decide on his armor and weapon and jot these down and any exceptinal stats.

That's the beauty about C&C. That method works great.

DangerDwarf wrote:
That's the beauty about C&C. That method works great.

Seconded!

I've used a noble class in 3.e but haven't been playing C&C enough to need to convert it over.

Quote:
Plenty of nobles COULD be Knights, Fighters, what have you, but plenty of others would only be raised in a world of diplomacy, intrigue, social interaction, and statecraft, with perhaps a much smaller catalogue of arms training.

That is exactly where I used it. A very urbane/ medici-Florence cut throat game & it came in VERY handy. Maliki's first thought is close to what I'd go for.

As for the scholar, I've seen them but never used them so I can't help there.
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My problem with creating a Noble class is that the nobles I have read about wouldn't be covered by a standardized class.

Nobles through out history have been the warrior/fighter, Knight, Paladin, Rogue/thief, and if you go into other cultures you can finde priests, Monks, and wizard types.

So I typically choose a class and call them a Noble, because that is a birth heritage rather than a class heritage.

If I was running a campaign with a very regimated government where every heir, and potential heir, to the throne would have the same skill set and abilities, then I could see writing up such a class.

serleran wrote:
I think one of the Dragonlance converters had a Noble class. Probably Rabindarath or Dragonhelm. I don't see a point to the class. Bards already are scholars.

I was looking into the idea in the other thread, but never made any conversion. It would be nice to adapt the noble and the master, though the master is based largely on 3e mechanics.

Here's one suggestion that might work...

DangerDwarf wrote:
If it's the DL Noble you're looking at recreating, I don't see much difference in them and the C&C bard. Just change the fluff text and make a few minor changes:

Legend Lore can easily convert to Favor.

Drop decipher script and Fascinate in exchange for perhaps another class skill that fits with the noble's background. For Example, Lord Pinecone has always fancied himself an exceptional hunter. Years spent in the kingdom's preserve stalking it's elusive stag have made him an exceptional tracker.

The other Noble abilities (Inspire confidence, Inspire Greatness) the bard already has.

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Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus

As someone that plays a Noble in the Blackmoor world campaign run by Zeitgeist Games, I think a Noble would be a perfect class to port over to Castles & Crusades. I also think that Blackmoor would be 1000% more fun if they used C&C instead of D&D 3.5. Think what it would be like to play someone like Aragorn II or Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth, the two archetypes of nobility in The Lord of the Rings.

The Noble presented here is considered to be a 4th Son or somesuch, someone who didn't inherit his father's estates, become a Cleric/Paladin or a Knight. A little back of the envelop scribbling for this (which would probably need to be revised by people who know C&C more than I do) might look like this:

Prime: Charisma

Hit Dice: d6

Alignment: Any

Weapons: Any

Armor: Any

Use Cleric To Hit and XP Progression table
Abilities

- Birthright: At first level, Nobles begin the game with a free suit of armor of their choice, melee weapon of their choice and riding horse.

- Noble Blood: Nobles are taught from the time they are young that they are there are two kinds of people: leaders and followers. They are groomed to lead by example, to both exhort and excoriate. With this Nobles can intimidate enemies as well as uplift those whom the Noble considers allies.

- Right of Hospitality: Deference to rank is so much a part of the world that Nobles naturally expect and recieve such from those they meet. Whenever they are in lands in which they belong to the nobility, the Noble never need worry about going hungry or houseless. This can range from a free room at an Inn (if the locality is poor) to a being a guest at the local manor house.

- Secret Language: Nobles can speak and write in a more archaic style that generally confuses anyone not of Noble birth.

- Law of the Land (5th level): Wherever a Noble goes, he is considered to be the executor of the King's Law. In the wild, where the King's Law doesn't reach, or even in the heart of the realm, Nobles are expected to bear witness and even carry out the law of the land. Nobles who flaunt their authority, however, may find themselves being subject to the very laws they themselves supposedly enforced.

Special Conduct: Similar to that of a Knight's. The Noble is expected, when capable, of extending the same courtesies to those who call upon him as he has done to others in the past. Nobles are also expected to pledge their word is true and not bear false witness, and woe be to the Noble who flaunts this commandment. Nobles are also expected to be merciful to peasants, as they depend on these people to work the land and feed them.

Racial bonuses: Both Dwarves and Elves should recieve +2 to Noble Blood when used on those of their race.

scholarly options were also discussed in the following thread: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
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That's actually a pretty good representation for a noble Keolander. Nice work.

Keolander, great work, I'm copying & pasting as I type!

I'd tweak it a little for a grittier "game of thrones" setting but for a normal C&C world this fits perfectly.
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

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Baran, thanks for the thread, good stuff there too!
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

For a leader-type character, I devised the following secondary skill, which has worked perfectly in my games. And yes, I agree with serleran, there is no need for a Noble class.

The following skill allows more or less all of the abilities of the Dragonlance Noble class, but avoiding multiclassing and some concerns (why all Nobles should be able combatants?)

LEADERSHIP

(intelligence and charisma prime / intelligence and charisma)

This ability allows for the control, direction, guidance, management, organization and planning of activities of groups of people. Furthermore, a true leader develops the arts of convincing, diplomacy, ingratiation, etiquette, influence and calling in favors when dealing with people; such activities are also covered by the skill.

Finally, acquisition of this skill replicates the Embolden ability of knights and the Exalt ability of bards, at a class level equivalent to 2 for each skill level.

Should a knight take this skill, he would receive a +2 to Embolden checks for each level of the skill.

Analogously, a bard would receive a +2 to Exalt checks for each level of the skill.

%%%%%%%%%%

If you want the leader to be noble, too, and want a bit more detail, just use the guidelines in M&T, together with the following ideas: (adapted from some discussion with serleran):

Despite the different names, nobles in all different cultures share more or less the same fundamental characteristic: the privilege of title.

A noble is a recognized figurehead, known to the people of his homeland. Prestige allows the noble to invoke certain legal rights and to gain advantages that non-nobles cannot have, such as discounts on arms or the ability to retain the assistance of powerful individuals who would otherwise be disinclined, including that of demanding shelter from both nobles and temples. However, prestige works against a noble too, for he can be easily exploited -- by merchants and crooks. All purchased items have a 50% chance of costing 10-40% more than normal, without the noble realizing it (if the chance fails, the noble, instead, gains a 20% reduction in price, brought by fear of reprisal), and there is always a chance of the noble risking kidnapping for ransom, and always at an exorbitant fee, causing more physical altercations for traveling companions than standard. Prestige does not function in lands outside the noble's homeland, unless the title granted is something of worldwide importance such as a king or emperor, and even then, it may (10-30% depending on attitude toward the noble's territory) be ignored.

For a scholar, just give plenty of levels of the Knowledge Specialist secondary skill. It works nicely!

Cheers,

Antonio

DangerDwarf wrote:
That's actually a pretty good representation for a noble Keolander. Nice work.

Looks good to me as well.
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Good class writeup, but the Special Conduct ability supposes that all Nobles are good and pure of heart, which might not be the case. I would remove the ability or reword it to be more general.

rabindranath72 wrote:
Good class writeup, but the Special Conduct ability supposes that all Nobles are good and pure of heart, which might not be the case. I would remove the ability or reword it to be more general.

I like the Special Conduct, thats how nobles should act (noble), now if they don't there could be a backlash, (Thats why evil nobles have to be sneaky about things they do.)
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Maliki wrote:
I like the Special Conduct, thats how nobles should act (noble), now if they don't there could be a backlash, (Thats why evil nobles have to be sneaky about things they do.)

I do not see how it should be a class feature. It is a matter of background. I could create a lawful evil Noble ruler. He would still be a Noble, but he would not have any Special Conduct at all.

rabindranath72 wrote:
I do not see how it should be a class feature. It is a matter of background. I could create a lawful evil Noble ruler. He would still be a Noble, but he would not have any Special Conduct at all.

That's largely dependant on the campaign type. Sure in a FR, DL, and other campaigns what you say is true.

In a less fantastical setting or historical campaign that LE Noble not adhering to the conduct, at least in lip service, could easily find himself facing angry peasents, censure from his peer or king, etc.

DangerDwarf wrote:
That's largely dependant on the campaign type. Sure in a FR, DL, and other campaigns what you say is true.

In a less fantastical setting or historical campaign that LE Noble not adhering to the conduct, at least in lip service, could easily find himself facing angry peasents, censure from his peer or king, etc.

Take the historical Vlad Tepes. I cannot imagine one more LE than him, and he would certainly qualify as Noble; and he had no-one above him. Sorry, but I still cannot find special conduct as a class ability.

Cheers,

Antonio

rabindranath72 wrote:
Take the historical Vlad Tepes. I cannot imagine one more LE than him, and he would certainly qualify as Noble; and he had no-one above him. Sorry, but I still cannot find special conduct as a class ability.

Cheers,

Antonio

And he probably didn't possess a single class level in Noble.
Seriously though, I've always been one who thought that not all nobles had the Noble class. Do I think a Noble class is needed or necessary. Nah, not really. But the write up provided would work well in a Feudal, classical setting where Nobles should be just that...noble.

DangerDwarf wrote:
And he probably didn't possess a single class level in Noble.
Seriously though, I've always been one who thought that not all nobles had the Noble class. Do I think a Noble class is needed or necessary. Nah, not really. But the write up provided would work well in a Feudal, classical setting where Nobles should be just that...noble.

Sure, not all nobles would be Nobles.

King Vlad was a fine diplomat and bloodthirsty guy. A Noble from hell.

It's just that I do not see why Nobles should be "noble". More often than not, even historically, they were all but "noble" (and in Italy we have seen lots of them).

The Dragonlance Noble class is an example of what I mean. A generic enough class without any ethical or moral implications.

The Noble class above would be akin to a Paladin; but I would like to see a shrewd, ruthless diplomat who also enjoys the class characteristics above without any ethical/moral qualms.

Anyway, I guess we will have to agree to disagree
Cheers,

Antonio