Troll Lord Games

I was looking at the costs lately and I wondered why it sometimes costs so much to make magic items. Even creating scrolls is a little expensive. I am sure that the only reason item creation is so expensive is to deter people from creating too many artifacts. But I also dont understand how people can make magic floating castles, teleportation rooms, etc , if a rod can reduce a PC 2 levels...

I dont think I would mess with the rules on this one, but I have always wondered why it was so expensive.

If it were too cheap (much like it seems to be in 3E D&D), magic items would feel rather mundane while they should be coveted and cherished. As a CK, I prefer to have my players find most of their magic gear in addition to occasionally creating an item. It allows me to keep my campaign in check more easily...
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"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
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Do you think it would be too much if I had wizard or illusionist player characters start with a few scrolls of spells they know?

As the CK (I'm guessing you are), you are in a far better position than me to evaluate what would be too much or not enough for your own campaign. A few scrolls might be standard issue in a magic-rich world or be a king's ransom in a magic-poor world.
As far as I'm concerned, a few consumable magic items such as potions and scrolls could be granted at 1st level without much risk. For example, you could grant a couple of scrolls of spells they already know which you could pretend that they have learned from (learning a spell from a scroll doesn't destroy it in my campaign but I don't remember how it is by the book).
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"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

If you think the costs are too high, cut them. Numbers are easy to manipulate.

As to why they are high... several reasons:

Magic is not common. This is easily rationalized -- look at the number of spelllcasting classes of C&C as opposed to other D&D-like variants. 4 : 9 or more! That automatically results in half as many items possibly existing.

The level requirement, coupled with slow advancement means: of those 4 classes that can make magic items, very few of the "characters" will ever reach a point that they can do so.

Money is not as "gifted" in C&C as it is in other D&D-like games, either, witnessed by the treasure tables themselves.

All this results in the notion that magic is magical. Not in the "duh" sense, but in the "oh my God I finally got something magical! Woohoo!!!!" 1st level PCs are not supposed to have magic items, and 5th level PCs should be glad they have their 2 +1 arrows.

Now, as a CK, it is your world/setting to change... but that is the default, since, without a default, there can't really be a "system."

I would not give a 1st level PC scrolls of spells they know. Spellcasters already get many more spells/day to cast than their AD&D counterparts... and giving them even more is just calling for abuse. I'd rather convert "spell mastery" from d20, allowing a PC caster one spell per spell level which can always be spontaneously cast.

At least then magic would seem to be what it is.... different.

I completely agree with Serleran on this one. Magic is supposed to rare and wondrous. Just because there are 400 magic items in the game, doesn't mean that in a campaign the PC will need to come across most of them. That's what other campaigns are for.

I think it's an atronomical boon for players to hear about items or legends of items in game and adventure to claim them.
STORY:

Flynd, the Rogue Slayer of Bard's Gate is well known in myth and legend. Stories say that Flynd, although lost to tale now, was not the true power behind his skill. Flynd was known to carry a quiver of arrows that would slay any living creature with a single hit. The arrows dripped blood from the fletching and it is said that Flynd travelled the very Hells to obtain these arrows from a demon himself!
REALITY:

Flynd was never seen in Bard's Gate again. His lonely body lies at the bottom of a trecherous gultch with all of worldly possessions on him. The undergrowth of the valley conceals the skeletal form of the well known Rogue, which is the reason the body has never been discovered. On the ground near Flynd's body are 12 arrows +1 that are fletched with red (not blooody or demonic in any way as stories claim.

..........................................Omote

FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Omote, I agree & good story.

I always lean toward a more "historic" low to mid magic level game, so have always been stingy with handing out magic. To help out the players (if they have a good enough background & role play it out) I let their items grow with them a bit. "That sword you found under the long dead knight's body & then later used to defend the pass from 5 goblins, & then used in swearing to your new liege lord.... It now seams to fit your hand better, is much easier to keep sharp, you you notice your hand always drifts to the hilt before any goblins attack, even if you didn't know they were there. Do you really want to trade it in for a new shiny sword...?

If my players ever see the flying castle & such...... Boy are they in up to their necks dealing with POWERFUL things.

Quote:
I'd rather convert "spell mastery" from d20, allowing a PC caster one spell per spell level which can always be spontaneously cast.

I've never though of that one & will give it a go.
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

I dident think of the game as low magic. I just noticed that magic costs a lot more than I am used to. I am going to consider this matter further though. I was thinking of letting players start with items akin to their trade (training sword for a fighter, etc) and magic users might get a scroll or 2. I am still considering my options at this point, but your spell mastery suggestion is a good one.

For a CK, allowing PCs to create their own magic items can be akin to opening pandoras box. I personally wouldn't allow more than 1 magic item per player and would heavily restrict what spells they can or can't put in it. Otherwise, players tend to expect to amass magic items without adventuring. And the same goes for allowing NPCs to sell magic items to PCs when it's not a reward for completing an adventure.

Personally, I recommend leaving magic item creation to the NPCs unless it involves adventuring...i.e. having the party spend multiple sessions running around collecting parts for a single average powered item. IMHO That's the best way to do it, and they'll treasure it more that way.

Just my opinion.

Brian Miller
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"The adventure continues"

Ok. Now here is a thought for those who want to give the players reign to create magic items. One of the methods in the M&T is that of basicly draining XP off a willing donor to put a given ability into a magic item.

The angle I suggest considering is....

What if the donor was unwilling? Ponder the possibilities.

Or, to put it simply, think of the fun of level draining items or spells.

Vampric Touch, as a spell, comes to mind, there are others.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Quote:
Personally, I recommend leaving magic item creation to the NPCs unless it involves adventuring...i.e. having the party spend multiple sessions running around collecting parts for a single average powered item. IMHO That's the best way to do it, and they'll treasure it more that way.

Just my opinion.

Mine too.

Quote:
Ok. Now here is a thought for those who want to give the players reign to create magic items. One of the methods in the M&T is that of basicly draining XP off a willing donor to put a given ability into a magic item.

The angle I suggest considering is....

What if the donor was unwilling? Ponder the possibilities.

Or, to put it simply, think of the fun of level draining items or spells.

Vampric Touch, as a spell, comes to mind, there are others.

I like it. I always wondered why Lich's had a level drain ability. Considering how much XP is needed, they could probably suck the life out of an entire village just creating one magical item of mediocre a value. Only the essense of a hero would have the power to make a mighty item.
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Check out my Iron C&C House Rules: The Tombs of Akrasia

irda ranger wrote:
I always wondered why Lich's had a level drain ability. Considering how much XP is needed, they could probably suck the life out of an entire village just creating one magical item of mediocre a value. Only the essense of a hero would have the power to make a mighty item.

Draining the life essence out of a village is a good idea, but liches are generally pretty smart. To drain life on such a mass level begins to attract parties of heroes. And liches certainly wouldn;t like that... unless they were of sufficiently low level.
.........................................Omote

FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Omote wrote:
Draining the life essence out of a village is a good idea, but liches are generally pretty smart. To drain life on such a mass level begins to attract parties of heroes.

Unless, of course, the Lich had his own kingdom, whose population served as a source of magical power. Sudddenly, the nations of Thay, Mulhorand and Unther (run by Liches, Mummies and Vampires) makes a lot more sense. Sort of a bronze-age fantasy version of the Matrix, where humans have been reduced to a source of energy.
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Check out my Iron C&C House Rules: The Tombs of Akrasia

Consider the possibilites of an Assassin, possessed of a life stealing dagger, working for some high end villain.

There's no reason why life stealing blades couldn't have their purpose extended a little. ^_^
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

irda ranger wrote:
Unless, of course, the Lich had his own kingdom, whose population served as a source of magical power. Sudddenly, the nations of Thay, Mulhorand and Unther (run by Liches, Mummies and Vampires) makes a lot more sense. Sort of a bronze-age fantasy version of the Matrix, where humans have been reduced to a source of energy.

But wouldn't the population rebel? Or does the population not know of these life-stealing rulers?

As for the life steeling dagger, a good idea. I shall use this. *snagged*

..........................................Omote

FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Ya know, along that same vein, Vampires would be very adept at making magic items. *trundles off to sketching again.*
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

I've got lifepath magic, where a caster can spend their own existence, or another, to power the creation of a magic item. Only spellbinders know the secrets, though, and only a few characters can be a spellbinder.

Omote wrote:
But wouldn't the population rebel? Or does the population not know of these life-stealing rulers?

As for the life steeling dagger, a good idea. I shall use this. *snagged*

..........................................Omote

FPQ

Sadly, there are many ways around this.

Maybe the population doesn't know. Heck, maybe they don't even know the real rulers are undead (the guy who walks around wearing a crown is just a dominated puppet). People just disappear in the night, and word doesn't get out because anyone who asks too many questions also disappears.

Maybe the population does know, but the undead rulers promise safety, wealth and privilage to one class or tribe in exchange for keeping the underclass (the source of the life energy) under control (there are too many examples of something like this happening in the real world's history).

Lastly, there's the Ravenloft / Githyanki model: everyone knows, but no one can escape, and anyone who gets too powerful is eaten by the Vampire / coven of Liches that rules the kingdom. Would you rebel if you knew a dozen meteor swarms hitting your home town would be the immediate result, or that a Vampire would turn your family into spawn as punishment for your deeds?
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Check out my Iron C&C House Rules: The Tombs of Akrasia

Omote wrote:
But wouldn't the population rebel? Or does the population not know of these life-stealing rulers?

Would the population rebel against their gods? I think not. ^_~`

"Come into my temple and give unto me your heart and soul" said the Spider Priest to his flies...
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Its not like i want my players to create arsenals, I am mostly complaining about the costs of scrolls.

dualj wrote:
Its not like i want my players to create arsenals, I am mostly complaining about the costs of scrolls.

Those rules books aren't the holy scriptures, just adjust the cost for creating scrolls to your liking no matter what we may think. 8) I am guilty of far greater heresy and I can assure you that no one came storming in my home to stop me from gaming, yet...
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"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

Talk about the tax man sucking you dry!
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society