Troll Lord Games

Hi all-

I have been debating a house rule that would allow Dexterity to be used as the attribute for attacks, instead of Strength. This would be applicable to light weapons only, such as daggers and rapiers.

However, i'm not sure how to decide which weapons apply and which don't. I'd like to find a way to determine this without looking through that other Player's Handbook...
I was thinking something like this: Weight + Encumberance < 7. If true, the weapon is light and you use your Dexterity for attacks instead of Strength. This would work for short swords, rapiers, and daggers, while keeping a long sword in the non-light category. But a spear would be a 5- does it make sense to use Dexterity for a spear? But a staff comes in at 8, and it'd be more fitting for Dexterity (or would it?).

Anyone have any ideas on how to make a rule to decide this? Or should it always be on a case-by-case basis?

Thanks for the input!

-Fizz

I allow Dex to modify attacks for any melee weapon that does 1d6 damage or less.
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Any weapon a wizard can use, as they are not known for using their strength.

irda ranger wrote:
I allow Dex to modify attacks for any melee weapon that does 1d6 damage or less.

That may be too simplistic for my liking. There are several weapons that meet the d6 requirement, but really should require Strength, not Dexterity. (Some polearms for example).

Maybe it should be based on weight alone? I mean, heavy objects need Strength, light objects do not.

-Fizz

Fizz wrote:
That may be too simplistic for my liking. There are several weapons that meet the d6 requirement, but really should require Strength, not Dexterity. (Some polearms for example).

-Fizz

I admit its simplistic, but it works and does not require defining certain weapons as light. I figure any weapon that does only 1d6 damage or less (whether its a polearm or not) can be whipped around rather quickly, and is as dependent on reflexes as on brute strength (just check out some of those wu xia kung fu movie actors do with spears, poles, and other polearms).

Don't think about it too hard.
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How about simply any weapon a Rogue/Assasin or Wizard/Illusionist can use?

I mean that gets the heart of the matter, doesn't it? Letting the classes that rely on AC to use that bonus on the offensive.

irda ranger wrote:
I figure any weapon that does only 1d6 damage or less (whether its a polearm or not) can be whipped around rather quickly, and is as dependent on reflexes as on brute strength (just check out some of those wu xia kung fu movie actors do with spears, poles, and other polearms).

Don't think about it too hard.

Well, that's the thing, big long weapons are unwieldly. Don't know if you've ever tried to swing a polearm before, but they're heavy awkward things, regardless of the kind of blade is at the end.

The polearm weapons in the wu xia kung fu are usually (iirc) flexible on lighter woods, and not more than 5' in length. I can maybe see a spear using Dexterity, but a 10 pike, no.

I don't want want to think too hard no, but don't want it so simplified that it doesn't make sense.

-Fizz

Fizz wrote:
Well, that's the thing, big long weapons are unwieldly. Don't know if you've ever tried to swing a polearm before, but they're heavy awkward things, regardless of the kind of blade is at the end.

The polearm weapons in the wu xia kung fu are usually (iirc) flexible on lighter woods, and not more than 5' in length. I can maybe see a spear using Dexterity, but a 10 pike, no.

I don't want want to think too hard no, but don't want it so simplified that it doesn't make sense.

-Fizz

Truism: The big unwieldly ones do more than 1d6 damage. If it does less than 1d6 damage, it is not big and unwieldly (if wielded properly in two hands).
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Ive toyed with a more fighting style answer. If the player is more trained in movement & avoiding getting hit, ie thief, assassin, or fighters that are going down that path, they can use their dex. They will have to use weapons that follow that style, ie S Sword, dagger, rapier, cut & thrust sword, etc. A wizard thief or similar mix would fall in this area

A knight, paladin or heavy armored fighter STR all the way.

Im not sure what Id do with a wizard fighter, guess it would depend on the style of play the game was.

Quote:
Well, that's the thing, big long weapons are unwieldly. Don't know if you've ever tried to swing a polearm before, but they're heavy awkward things, regardless of the kind of blade is at the end.

The polearm weapons in the wu xia kung fu are usually (iirc) flexible on lighter woods, and not more than 5' in length. I can maybe see a spear using Dexterity, but a 10 pike, no.

I agree. No pole arm gets dex (well I guess a quarter staff could) nor does heavier weapons/weapons.
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Quote:
Truism: The big unwieldly ones do more than 1d6 damage. If it does less than 1d6 damage, it is not big and unwieldly (if wielded properly in two hands).

Hmmm... i disagree.

Damage is determined by the nature of the blade. But the awkwardness of the weapon is determined by many factors (length, weight, etc).

That's why i think Weight and/or Encumberance should be part of this determination.

-Fizz

Fizz wrote:
Damage is determined by the nature of the blade. But the awkwardness of the weapon is determined by many factors (length, weight, etc).

That's why i think Weight and/or Encumberance should be part of this determination.

-Fizz

Fair enough. I made the argument.

The truth is, I use the d20 SRD for weapon damage, not the C&C equipment section (too wonky). In the d20 SRD the all polearms do 1d8/2d4 or more.
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I think the Weight + EV < 7 is a good rule for this. The Spear that is mentioned is the one-handed, throwable type, which is more of a one-handed thruster than a two-handed weapon (the two hander is the long spear).

And since I have the files here electronically, I can do a quick little Excel spreadsheet and... Here's the list of Weight+EV<7:

Cestus

Brass Knuckles

Dagger

Knife

Sap

Cat-O-Nine-Tails

Cleaver

Gauntlet, Spiked

Katar

Main Gauche

Hammer, Light

Hatchet

Club

Spear

Sword, Rapier

Sword, Short

Axe, Hand/Throwing

Sickle

I don't see anything on this list that really shouldn't be there, anyone else?

I think using dexterity sounds all well and good, when you want to provide a bonus to a character where one would not be present otherwise.

However, what if the character has a penalty to his attack rolls due to his low STR? Can he dismiss that penalty because he is using a "light" weapon (regardless of how you define it) and taking his DEX modifier instead of his STR modifier? Just as an example, what if a character had a 16 DEX and 7 STR? Does he use the -1 due to STR or take the +2 from DEX?

I think there may be an argument here for use of dexterity in place of strength, or even using both (especially in cases where penalties apply). But, as far as the game goes, I don't really think it will make much of a difference except in character design archetypes (dual-weilding kukri's or the quentisential fencer with rapier and main-gauche as examples).
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"Size matters not."

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The list here looks quite reasonable, now that i can see the entire results in a nice list. I think the the weight + Enc < 7 rule works fine.

One could also argue that if weight + Enc = 7 exactly, then either Dexterity OR Strength is your relevant stat. That would represent that crossover range where one could make use of either attribute. (Dexterity for a longsword?)

StealthSuitStanley wrote:
However, what if the character has a penalty to his attack rolls due to his low STR? Can he dismiss that penalty because he is using a "light" weapon (regardless of how you define it) and taking his DEX modifier instead of his STR modifier?

Hmmm... very good question.

My thinking was that these weapons are light enough where Strength is not relevant. Usage of the weapon is dependent on your hand-eye coordination instead of sheer muscle mass.

For example, no matter how good your hand-eye coordination, you need be strong to properly use a claymore- it's just so heavy. Conversely, a dagger is so light that anyone should be able to make use of it. It's a precision weapon, not one of brute force.

I guess the question is this: would a person with a Strength of 3 have problems lifting a 1 pound object? A 3 pound object? A 7 pound object? If so, then the Strength penalty should apply. If not, then it needn't be applied.

-Fizz

cheeplives wrote:
I think the Weight + EV < 7 is a good rule for this. The Spear that is mentioned is the one-handed, throwable type, which is more of a one-handed thruster than a two-handed weapon (the two hander is the long spear).

I took a look at the list and, I must say, this is a pretty good and simple formula that seems to fit the bill. Thanks for this!

Moriarty the Red
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