Feats? Tokens as from Iron Heroes?

Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:07 pm

I've got a compound question that perhaps should have been broken into two posts but here goes...

I'm wondering if anyone has ported Feats to C&C. I'm by no means a Feat junkie since I've never played D&D 3.x. I'm just curious since I'm seriously thinking about C&C Star Wars and I own the D20 SW revised core rulebook. I ran the game only once but just didn't like standard D20. To me, C&C and SW would seem to fit like a glove.

Also, I've only ever read Iron Heroes but the combat system 'extras' seem really interesting and seem like they'd spice things up. Has anyone used that system in their C&C game?

Thanks, guys.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:43 pm

Eisenmann wrote:
To me, C&C and SW would seem to fit like a glove.

Check out starSEIGE or whatever they are calling it now. PM me and I'll email the PDF from way back.
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irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:01 pm

My house rules are explicitly a C&C / Iron Heroes hybrid. I have adopted several concepts that I like about IH that I thought would be a good fit for C&C. Specifically, you have a level-dependent bonus to AC, Armor = DR, and the stunts.

There's a PDF with the stunts listed out somewhere, but I can't find it right now. I'll keep looking.

However, I have not adopted the Skills, Feats or Tokens mechanics from Iron Heroes. They're cool, but if you want to use that much of an IH setting, you should probably just play IH and strip out any rules you don't want. You really can't import Tokens too well without importing all of the other rules, so its an all-or-nothing type deal. I think trying to build C&C up to that height of rules would be too top heavy.

I'm the CK in my C&C group and a PC in my Iron Heroes group, and they both play 1-2 time / month, so I get plenty of experience with both. If you really want to work on importing Tokens, I'll take a look at any ideas posted and give it some thought.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:52 pm

Importing feats to C&C is no problem, we've done this since our first game. The best way to handle this is to pick the feats you like, keeping the list small and simple.
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:54 am

irda ranger wrote:
My house rules are explicitly a C&C / Iron Heroes hybrid. I have adopted several concepts that I like about IH that I thought would be a good fit for C&C. Specifically, you have a level-dependent bonus to AC, Armor = DR, and the stunts.

There's a PDF with the stunts listed out somewhere, but I can't find it right now. I'll keep looking.

However, I have not adopted the Skills, Feats or Tokens mechanics from Iron Heroes. They're cool, but if you want to use that much of an IH setting, you should probably just play IH and strip out any rules you don't want. You really can't import Tokens too well without importing all of the other rules, so its an all-or-nothing type deal. I think trying to build C&C up to that height of rules would be too top heavy.

I'm the CK in my C&C group and a PC in my Iron Heroes group, and they both play 1-2 time / month, so I get plenty of experience with both. If you really want to work on importing Tokens, I'll take a look at any ideas posted and give it some thought.

I was looking at the IH stunts and some of them wouldn't work used as-is. I mean, you can't get a bonus for getting hit in C&C because that character wouldn't be standing for very long.

I've thought about playing IH more than once but my experience with SW d20 really turned me off. Though I love C&C. I'll crack open the IH book and see what I can come up with to post about stunting.

Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:55 am

Maliki wrote:
Importing feats to C&C is no problem, we've done this since our first game. The best way to handle this is to pick the feats you like, keeping the list small and simple.

Thanks Maliki. I'm off to compile a core feats list for my games.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:57 am

I see no reason to add the elements that overcomplicated, and over-stupefied, the fantasy gaming experience. Feats are a customization illusion that add nothing to the game except a laundry list of "yes, you can do this" instead of "hey, can I try...." which is more cnouraging to imaginative play and ongoing development.

That said, I know of some who use feats, but in such cases, I would rather see them incorporated as new class abilities, or variants on existing ones, as the sort that gets added are generally those of a specific nature anyway.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:58 am

I have something similiar to a feat system in my games, although characters dont automatically get them nor do they ever have to try and get get.

Mine works along the line of the Secondary Skills system in CZ, and adds fighting styles and moves into the mix. So, these "feats are bought with XP just like Secondary Skills.

So, if someone wanted to get the equivalent to Improved Two Weapon Fighting lets say, this is what they have to do.

1. Find a teacher for the fighting style they wish to learn (in this case two weapon fighting)and spend time in training.

2. Once they have been trained the need to put their newfound training to practical use. This is represented by the XP cost to get the skill. While training in the ability, when adventuring the character must use two weapons a majority of their time in combat. They can use up to 50% of the XP gained in that adventuring session to "buy off" the weapon skill they are learning. This will likely take more than a single session.

3. Once they reach the half way mark of buying off the new weapon style, they gain 1/2 the benefit for that style.

The XP cost leads to slightly slower class advancement but shows that they are not devoting their full time to class advancement while attempting to learn a new style.

Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:08 am

serleran wrote:
I see no reason to add the elements that overcomplicated, and over-stupefied, the fantasy gaming experience. Feats are a customization illusion that add nothing to the game except a laundry list of "yes, you can do this" instead of "hey, can I try...." which is more cnouraging to imaginative play and ongoing development.

That said, I know of some who use feats, but in such cases, I would rather see them incorporated as new class abilities, or variants on existing ones, as the sort that gets added are generally those of a specific nature anyway.

I was thinking more along the lines of class abilities instead of just a blanket list of feats. I'm looking at it also as a way to play in settings such as Star Wars.

Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:08 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
I have something similiar to a feat system in my games, although characters dont automatically get them nor do they ever have to try and get get.

Mine works along the line of the Secondary Skills system in CZ, and adds fighting styles and moves into the mix. So, these "feats are bought with XP just like Secondary Skills.

So, if someone wanted to get the equivalent to Improved Two Weapon Fighting lets say, this is what they have to do.

1. Find a teacher for the fighting style they wish to learn (in this case two weapon fighting)and spend time in training.

2. Once they have been trained the need to put their newfound training to practical use. This is represented by the XP cost to get the skill. While training in the ability, when adventuring the character must use two weapons a majority of their time in combat. They can use up to 50% of the XP gained in that adventuring session to "buy off" the weapon skill they are learning. This will likely take more than a single session.

3. Once they reach the half way mark of buying off the new weapon style, they gain 1/2 the benefit for that style.

The XP cost leads to slightly slower class advancement but shows that they are not devoting their full time to class advancement while attempting to learn a new style.

I like it!

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:47 am

Eisenmann wrote:
I like it!

Thanks.

I chose this method because of the archtypes that the classes represent and the SIEGE engine. To me, utilizing standard skills or feats takes away from these archtypes or blurs the lines. When you require XP expendeture to gain abilities beyond the archtype, it seems to balance out for me.

Also, this method allows you to add not only representations of feats but unique combat styles as well. For example, one in my campaign is a form of knife fighting. The bonuses gained only work for knives and allows the character learning it to simultaneously throw two knives without suffering any penalties to hit as well as gives a few situational modifiers when fighting with knives.

It also allows me to import the Midnight style magic that allows any class to learn limited amounts of magic.

The key thing to me is that the character has to seek these things and find mentors. They dont just magically get them every few levels.

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:51 am

Eisenmann wrote:
I was looking at the IH stunts and some of them wouldn't work used as-is. I mean, you can't get a bonus for getting hit in C&C because that character wouldn't be standing for very long.

Indeed. I couldn't have used the stunts as written without first importing a Bonus to AC advancement. They work together.

Eisenmann wrote:
I've thought about playing IH more than once but my experience with SW d20 really turned me off. Though I love C&C. I'll crack open the IH book and see what I can come up with to post about stunting.

I like IH, but it's nothing like C&C. If you really enjoy C&C, and were generally turned off by d20 games, you're probably not going to like IH. Spend some time reading on Monte's message board before you make your decision.
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irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:58 am

serleran wrote:
I see no reason to add the elements that overcomplicated, and over-stupefied, the fantasy gaming experience. Feats are a customization illusion that add nothing to the game except a laundry list of "yes, you can do this" instead of "hey, can I try...." which is more encouraging to imaginative play and ongoing development.

That said, I know of some who use feats, but in such cases, I would rather see them incorporated as new class abilities, or variants on existing ones, as the sort that gets added are generally those of a specific nature anyway.

I agree with both points 100%. That's why I did not try (and am not going to try) to port Feats & Skills into my house rules. I have made a conscious effort to not port over anything which reduced the free-form, imagination-empowering rule-set of C&C.

Echoing the second point, where I felt there were "gaps" in the C&C rule-set I introduced a basic rule that applied to everyone (e.g., any melee weapon of 1d6 or less damage may use Dex to modify BtH) or introduced a new class ability (e.g., at 4th level Fighters choose a "Fighting Style", of which Combat Dominance is just one).
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irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:09 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
I have something similiar to a feat system in my games, although characters dont automatically get them nor do they ever have to try and get get.

Mine works along the line of the Secondary Skills system in CZ, and adds fighting styles and moves into the mix. So, these "feats are bought with XP just like Secondary Skills.

So, if someone wanted to get the equivalent to Improved Two Weapon Fighting lets say, this is what they have to do.

1. Find a teacher for the fighting style they wish to learn (in this case two weapon fighting)and spend time in training.

2. Once they have been trained the need to put their newfound training to practical use. This is represented by the XP cost to get the skill. While training in the ability, when adventuring the character must use two weapons a majority of their time in combat. They can use up to 50% of the XP gained in that adventuring session to "buy off" the weapon skill they are learning. This will likely take more than a single session.

3. Once they reach the half way mark of buying off the new weapon style, they gain 1/2 the benefit for that style.

The XP cost leads to slightly slower class advancement but shows that they are not devoting their full time to class advancement while attempting to learn a new style.

This is uncannily similar to my Skills system. I haven't used it to introduce fighting styles, but rather to introduce things like "Heal" or "Alchemy", which are clearly trained skills.

Essentially the PC can choose to get a certain skill and a one-time flat bonus, or they can get it as a new class ability (which adds your level to the roll) for an ongoing EP cost to level advancement. It's two mechanics in one, really.

As you say though, no one gets these for free, and no one should ever feel like they "need" to take these. The classes are "complete" as is, and do not rely on having some Feat or Skill rank to be a competent adventurer.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:21 am

irda ranger wrote:
This is uncannily similar to my Skills system. I haven't used it to introduce fighting styles, but rather to introduce things like "Heal" or "Alchemy", which are clearly trained skills.

So far I've found it to work well with a handful of fighting styles I have come up with. I too have also added heal to the lsit though I called it herbalism. It allows players to make various salves, tinctures, etc that have actually mechanical effects in the healing department. It helps offset the lack of clerics in low magic campaigns.

Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:00 pm

irda ranger and DangerDwarf,

I completely understand why you guys decided to handle "feats" the way you did but aren't levels a mechanic by which training, experience gained are abstracted?

For the longest time I thought that classes and levels were bad ideas. C&C lured me to the darkside. Now that I've made the leap back, I've decided to "Embrace the Suck", to use a military term.

I'm thinking about giving out feats at certain levels only if they can be explained in-game. I'm pondering the idea to have the PCs go off on side quests to find teachers. On these side quests the participating PCs will not gain XP but will achieve Feat requirements. Just a thought.

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:16 pm

Yes, level advancement is an abstraction of practice, training and experience. But that's OK. So are feats.

The real difference is between a "DIY" character builder (where there are no levels, just skills and feats, aka, the White Wolf method) and a "prix fixe menu" character builder where you choose your path at character generation and walk down it (the C&C method). D&D 3.x tried to split the difference between those two, and I think just ended up with two halves of a dead baby.

There are strengths to both. Some people find the class & levels path restricting, but I find it freeing. It's one less thing to worry about, and I can concentrate on role-playing and character & story development. I don't have to worry if I have an "optimal" build or if my Feat choices have doomed me to several levels of suckitude compared to my more min-maxie brethren. It moves all of our choices into a different sphere.

As with the DIY-system, the class and level system only works if the classes and levels are well designed vis a vis each other and the game world. They have to grant abilities without unduly restricting roleplaying. They need to "make sense" so that the player can embrace them, learn them, and then forget about them as they fade into the background. I think C&C has done that.

It's not "Embrace the Suck", it's "Embrace the choice in trade-offs."
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:31 pm

irda ranger wrote:
Yes, level advancement is an abstraction of practice, training and experience. But that's OK. So are feats.

The real difference is between a "DIY" character builder (where there are no levels, just skills and feats, aka, the White Wolf method) and a "prix fixe menu" character builder where you choose your path at character generation and walk down it (the C&C method). D&D 3.x tried to split the difference between those two, and I think just ended up with two halves of a dead baby.

There are strengths to both. Some people find the class & levels path restricting, but I find it freeing. It's one less thing to worry about, and I can concentrate on role-playing and character & story development. I don't have to worry if I have an "optimal" build or if my Feat choices have doomed me to several levels of suckitude compared to my more min-maxie brethren. It moves all of our choices into a different sphere.

As with the DIY-system, the class and level system only works if the classes and levels are well designed vis a vis each other and the game world. They have to grant abilities without unduly restricting roleplaying. They need to "make sense" so that the player can embrace them, learn them, and then forget about them as they fade into the background. I think C&C has done that.

It's not "Embrace the Suck", it's "Embrace the choice in trade-offs."

I was afraid that I'd be misinterpreted by using the Embrace... phrase. But it's not a big deal.

I've never played White Wolf games but know exactly what you're talking about. I've played Runequest, Gurps and a plethora of other games where you have to ensure that your character has at least a modicum of ability in key skills. If you forgot during the writeup then you're probably in trouble down the road. Sure, GM fiat and handwaving can take care of those things but then why worry about them to begin with? I've grown weary of that especially when I'm gaming with lesser experienced players. It's nice to roll up a character and start the story ball rolling and let the play flow without worrying or constantly being face-down looking at a character sheet to see if something is possible.

Like most any new convert, I'm pursuing my newfound love in its (to me) purest form and embrace (previously perceived) suck.

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:12 pm

Yeah, we're on the same page.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:56 pm

Eisenmann wrote:
I completely understand why you guys decided to handle "feats" the way you did but aren't levels a mechanic by which training, experience gained are abstracted?

I'm unsure of the point you are trying to make here.

Yes, the class/level based system is an abstraction, just as the SIEGE engine serves as an abstract skill system.

Training isn't always covered by the abstraction. Even in 1st Edition AD&D there were rules for characters to receive training before they could rise to the next level.

The experience progression charts the growth of a character within their chosen class and determines their abilities within the confines of that class. However, learning something beyond the scope of their archtype should carry with it the same cost as is utilized to chart their class growth. That cost would be XP.

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:55 pm

serleran wrote:
I see no reason to add the elements that overcomplicated, and over-stupefied, the fantasy gaming experience. Feats are a customization illusion that add nothing to the game except a laundry list of "yes, you can do this" instead of "hey, can I try...." which is more cnouraging to imaginative play and ongoing development.

They've cranked this up another notch with "Skill tricks" that "allow" you to do acrobatic attacks and movie style stuff that people have done in my games for ages.

The sad part is that for games I PLAYED in. I found few GMs who recipocate and allow for that Errol Flynn style of play, even for Rogues.
I painfuly learned that just because people flock to your game because they love your style of play, it doesn't mean that's the same style of play they provide as a GM.

Oddly enough, the three guys who loved my free wheeling style the most were some of the most draconian GMs I ever hand. very, very disapointing.

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:35 pm

Just another thought about Tokens.

One Token-based power is the Executioner's ability to collect Tokens to boost her sneak-attack damage. Her base sneak attack is very low (compared to a D&D Rogue of the same level), but by studying her opponent for several rounds she can collect Tokens to boost the damage way beyond what a rogue of the same level can do.

If you think about it, that's really not that different than the C&C Assassin's death attack. There's no functional difference between "you just die" and "1d4+17d6 damage." They result in the same thing.

Basically, it might be worth thumbing through the IH books for some class-ability inspiration, but any class ability which only be used with a couple rounds of prep work (or some other way of "accumulating a charge" which "releases whoop-ass" all at once) is a good approximation of the Token system.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:59 am

OH, like a spellcaster storing up "mana" and blasting all at once. Might be a god way to duplicate the effects of metamagic, though I have my own system for that which has been posted here before...

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:52 am

serleran wrote:
OH, like a spellcaster storing up "mana" and blasting all at once. Might be a god way to duplicate the effects of metamagic, though I have my own system for that which has been posted here before...

Yeah. You could imagine that Fireball has a base effect of 3d6 (instead of 5d6), but that a magic-user can add +2d6 damage for each round he gathers mana (instead of imposing a level cap).

In fact, maybe you do away with spells / day entirely (for certain spells), if you placed a Mana Gathering cost instead. If Fireball take three rounds to cast (because you're gathering Mana), you aren't going to use it very often.

But that's talking about a major-rewrite.

On a less radical note, here are some other ideas:
Barbarian

A Barbarian may Rage any number of per day (though with some Fatigue for a fixed period afterward), but it now takes him several rounds of yelling, stomping around and biting his shield (and not attacking) to work himself up to it.
Monk
Ki Strike: Each round of focusing his Ki increases his effective "plusage" by 1 for a single attack.
Cleric
Turn Undead: Works as normal, or, if the Cleric chooses to gather his God's favor for three full rounds instead, he can release a single Turn Check as a cleric 5 levels higher.
Paladin (This is a real "Token" ability)
Smite Evil, Then Smite Them More:
Special Condition: A Paladin must be on a Holy Quest to use this ability.
The Rule: Each time a Paladin does more than 10 points of damage to an evil opponent (in furtherance of his Holy Quest) with a single blow, he gains a Unstoppable Warrior or God Token. If later (rounds, days, weeks, etc.) a Paladin is forced to roll a saving throw by an evil oppoent or suffer a setback to his Holy Quest, he may cash in a UWoG Token to grant himself a +2 bonus to the save after seeing the result. He may cash in as many UWoG Tokens as he currently has in his Token Pool. He can hold 10+ his Level in Tokens (any Tokens earned beyond that disappear). Upon completion of his Holy Quest all Tokens disappear.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:59 am

Wouldn't be a huge rewrite, really, and would make channeling very easy, and also make spell interruption far easier to adjudicate. Hmm... might be thinking of something for the future now.

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:10 am

serleran wrote:
Wouldn't be a huge rewrite, really, and would make channeling very easy, and also make spell interruption far easier to adjudicate. Hmm... might be thinking of something for the future now.

Not a huge re-write? I would be interested in a spell system that would allow for unlimited spells out of combat (as long as they're no more than once every X rounds) while also being balanced vis a vis the Fighers and Knights of the group in-combat without requiring a major rewrite. Seriously. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that I would love to see a working sytem like this, because I have tried to make one like it for some time.

I think your biggest problem will be spells that have Instaneous or Permanent effects. Make sure to ask yourself: what would happen if you could cast this an unlimited number of times / day (even if once every X rounds). Suddenly a magic-user with Wall of Stone has grandiose visions of building himself a castle, or a city ... in two days. Or a Cleris thinks "Wouldn't it be cool to cast Create Water all day, fill up this basin to create a lake, and then break the dam and drown a whole city of kobolds."

Think about it. What would that mean to your campaign?
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pineappleleader · Post by **pineappleleader** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:57 am

irda ranger wrote:
Or a Cleric thinks "Wouldn't it be cool to cast Create Water all day, fill up this basin to create a lake, and then break the dam and drown a whole city of kobolds."

Think about it. What would that mean to your campaign?

Really angry Kobolds, with revenge on their minds? That Cleric and his friends are going to have a "very interesting time" of it.
I once played in a higher level dungeon where the MU's did everything. We fighters just stood around drinking beer and shaking our heads as the MU's kicked the monsters about. Very boring.

Non-spell users are kind of stuck if the monster is designed to be hit and damaged only by +3 (or better) weapons or magic spells. You could make the monster only be effected by spells of a certain level (3rd+, 5th+) to limit spell users power level.

I don't have the C&C books in front of me, but traditionally it is almost impossible to break a magic weapon. Unles you are fighting a major diety this has never really been a problem in games that I've played in.

How do you kill a monster if you do not have the correct weapon (magic, silver, etc.)? Under standard rules I don't think you can. A MU who is "out" of spells is just as useless as a fighter who does not have the correct weapon.
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irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:27 am

pineappleleader wrote:
Really angry Kobolds, with revenge on their minds? That Cleric and his friends are going to have a "very interesting time" of it.

Well, their un-drowned cousins would be pissed, at any rate.
But (a little) seriously, there can be some really wonky consequences to allowing PC's unlimited spells/ day. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it (or at least try), but think about it first.

pineappleleader wrote:
I once played in a higher level dungeon where the MU's did everything. We fighters just stood around drinking beer and shaking our heads as the MU's kicked the monsters about. Very boring.

Non-spell users are kind of stuck if the monster is designed to be hit and damaged only by +3 (or better) weapons or magic spells.

I totally agree, but I think you meant to post this comment in the Rules Question thread. It would certainly be on topic, at any rate.

Quote:
You could make the monster only be effected by spells of a certain level (3rd+, 5th+) to limit spell users power level.

So that no one could hit the baddie? That's asking for a TPK.

Not that there's anything wrong with that (once in a while).

Quote:
I don't have the C&C books in front of me, but traditionally it is almost impossible to break a magic weapon. Unles you are fighting a major diety this has never really been a problem in games that I've played in.

Nice of your GM's, at any rate. I don't have the C&C books with me either, but the games I've played in simply gave magical items a bonus, not a quasi-indestructability. And magical cloaks were still quite flamable, I have learned to my sorrow.

But breakage is only one way you can lose a weapon. You can also have it knocked out of your hand, or stolen, or you're taken prisoner and it gets sold. I think it would make a cool quest to track down a sold family heirloom sword for roleplaying reasons, but it cheapens those quests to suggest your doing it for the practical benefit of a +X weapon.

Quote:
A MU who is "out" of spells is just as useless as a fighter who does not have the correct weapon.

... for eight hours. MU's get their spells back the next day. Swords of Wounding, once broken, aren't so regenerative.

---------

This is all a question of gaming style. C&C (in the RAW) is a bit of Zelda-like, power-up game. You get the better sword, you move up to the next dungeon. If that's the game you want to play, well rock on!

That's just not the game I want to play. I have this vision in my head of a 10th level barbarian, bound in chains. He stands tall, uncowed by the cruel jests of his captors, waiting. Then, one day, his captors slip up ... and he gets a sword in his hands. It's an old, somewhat rusty blade, but it doesn't matter: it's the man that matters, far more than the sword. With a twist of the cross-guard, the padlock is snapped in twain, and the blade shifts to a fighting grip. With a roar (but no armor or shield, nor equipment of any kind save the rusty blade and his loincloth), he kills every last man in the room. Fighters, thieves, even a wizard or corrupt cleric or two and their Dire Wolf companions, fall before him. It doesn't matter that they've got adamantium weapons or magic spells (maybe it matters a little, but not enough); what matters is that he is Uthfar of the North, a 10th level Barbarian ... and they are not. His strength and power are intrinsic to himself, and not to any particular tool. It is not his destiny to die on the spears of such unworthy foes.

Will Uthfar spend the next two years tracking the man who betrayed him so that he could have Uthfar's legendary mithril hammer? Of course he will. But Uthfar will do it to restore his honor, and to punish a traitor. He will get the hammer back because it was a gift from Elaras Morningstar, the last King of Presanthium; not because it's a Hammer +3 and there aren't any replacement weapons to be found in the nearest dragon horde, damn it.

That's the game I want to play in. That's the game I want to CK.
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:14 pm

pineappleleader wrote:
irda ranger wrote:
How do you kill a monster if you do not have the correct weapon (magic, silver, etc.)? Under standard rules I don't think you can. A MU who is "out" of spells is just as useless as a fighter who does not have the correct weapon.

Just a thought and sort of taking an idea from AGON. Fighters can collect tokens and spend them whenever necessary (takes the concept beyond that presented in Iron Heroes I think) can spend them to make their weapon "holy" or "magical" enough to wound a monster that is basically immune to mundane weapons. Though it would be only for that encounter. And I'd enforce that there's an in-game reason that the fighter is able to do that - he sacrifices to his god or prays or what-not.

pineappleleader · Post by **pineappleleader** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:27 am

irda ranger wrote:
This is all a question of gaming style. C&C (in the RAW) is a bit of Zelda-like, power-up game. You get the better sword, you move up to the next dungeon. If that's the game you want to play, well rock on!

I play mostly fighters w/bastard sword. I don't really like magic all that much. But...the game was designed so that you must have magic to fight certain monsters. Original D&D was designed to fight monsters and collect gold and magic stuff. C&C is the same. You can work around this, but the game is not really designed for it.

irda ranger wrote:
That's just not the game I want to play. I have this vision in my head of a 10th level barbarian, bound in chains. He stands tall, uncowed by the cruel jests of his captors, waiting. Then, one day, his captors slip up ... and he gets a sword in his hands. It's an old, somewhat rusty blade, but it doesn't matter: it's the man that matters, far more than the sword. With a twist of the cross-guard, the padlock is snapped in twain, and the blade shifts to a fighting grip. With a roar (but no armor or shield, nor equipment of any kind save the rusty blade and his loincloth), he kills every last man in the room. Fighters, thieves, even a wizard or corrupt cleric or two and their Dire Wolf companions, fall before him. It doesn't matter that they've got adamantium weapons or magic spells (maybe it matters a little, but not enough); what matters is that he is Uthfar of the North, a 10th level Barbarian ... and they are not. His strength and power are intrinsic to himself, and not to any particular tool. It is not his destiny to die on the spears of such unworthy foes.

Will Uthfar spend the next two years tracking the man who betrayed him so that he could have Uthfar's legendary mithril hammer? Of course he will. But Uthfar will do it to restore his honor, and to punish a traitor. He will get the hammer back because it was a gift from Elaras Morningstar, the last King of Presanthium; not because it's a Hammer +3 and there aren't any replacement weapons to be found in the nearest dragon horde, damn it.

That's the game I want to play in. That's the game I want to CK.

I would really like to play in a game like this. It is Too 8) for words.
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Feats? Tokens as from Iron Heroes?

Feats? Tokens as from Iron Heroes?

Re: Feats? Tokens as from Iron Heroes?