CL- how much should players know?

[Fizz]

Hi all-

I've been working on an acrobat class for C&C. While working through the abilties of jumping, i began thinking about what appropriate CL's should be for various distances. I worked up a nice system for determining the CL based on distance.

Anywho, the question is whether this information should be included as part of the class ability description. I mean, there is no set of parameters for Track, or Climb, for example. How does a player know how difficult something is going to be? I mean, the CK can always say `it's about 10 feet across- that's one heck of a standing jump', or something like that. But ultimately a CL is needed.

The CL is determined by the CK of course, but some guidelines would be really useful for certain abilities. Should they be a part of the class description, or be for the CK only?

-Fizz

[DangerDwarf]

My opinion would be CK only. I dont even tell my players what the CL is for something they're attempting.

[Fizz]

I wonder if this is something the CKG will cover- how to find an appropriate CL for various situations. It'd be particularly useful for abilities that aren't completely intuitive that can be dependent on a large number of factors. IE, with Tracking, you've got the nature of the ground, night/day, number of creatures, size, weather, elapsed time, etc.

-Fizz

[DangerDwarf]

Fizz wrote:
I wonder if this is something the CKG will cover- how to find an appropriate CL for various situations. It'd be particularly useful for abilities that aren't completely intuitive that can be dependent on a large number of factors. IE, with Tracking, you've got the nature of the ground, night/day, number of creatures, size, weather, elapsed time, etc.

-Fizz

One of the things I like about C&C is the lack of need for such breakdowns. The whole Easy/Difficult/Very Difficult approach has served me well.

If you wanted tracking to be more in depth you could always use the modifiers from the AD&D PHB.

[serleran]

Entirely up to the CK. Personally, I feel keeping the players in the dark on the difficulties prevents them from telling me they succeed, just because they roll well. Maybe I didn't even have a difficulty, but wanted them to roll anyway... and then decide on the roll result whether I want it to happen, or not. Giving PCs the power of knowing the rules enables them, to abuse them, and "emasculates" the CK in a sense, by removing some aspects of trust and impartiality.

[Dristram]

I keep it hidden. Too much info to the players kind of hurts the suspense of the situation.

[Traveller]

I keep it hidden, but give a clue by telling them the general difficulty, by using descriptive words: Easy, Average, Difficult, Formidable, Staggering, Hopeless, Impossible. Doing this takes the numbers out of the equation, since I don't want the player knowing the exact number he needs. It also allows me to tell the player to roll the dice anyway if I'm bluffing.
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

[DangerDwarf]

Traveller wrote:
I keep it hidden, but give a clue by telling them the general difficulty, by using descriptive words: Easy, Average, Difficult, Formidable, Staggering, Hopeless, Impossible. Doing this takes the numbers out of the equation, since I don't want the player knowing the exact number he needs. It also allows me to tell the player to roll the dice anyway if I'm bluffing.

I think being descriptive when conveying it to the players is an important part of it. Plus, you are 100% correct on the bluffing.

[irda ranger]

I have to disagree with the consensus so far.

When deciding on whether or not to disclose a CL I ask myself how well the PC can measure the difficulty. For things which are just very uncertain (like trying to tell if someone is lying), I would not tell the CL. The PC has no way of telling how good a liar the other person is, or if they're a sociopath; the PC can't even objectively measure his own ability. There's no measuring stick.

A jump check is just about the exact opposite of that. An acrobat is a trained athlete. He knows exactly how far he can jump under different circumstances. He know if he's tired, or if the footing is sure, and how much weight he is carrying. He can see the distance, and judge for himself how hard it will be to make it. More, the acrobat has lots and lots of jumping experience. Like an Olympic athlete (who can tell you his long jump to within a couple inches every time), this PC would be very, very good at estimating how far he can jump, and how difficult any jump is.

Arguably there's enough uncertainty to say all he can guess at is a range of CC's, but I think that range is so narrow as to be meaningless. To be honest you'd have to say "It's somewhere between a 32 and a 34." That's just not worth it. Just tell him the number.
_________________
Check out my Iron C&C House Rules: The Tombs of Akrasia

[DangerDwarf]

irda ranger wrote:
I have to disagree with the consensus so far.

When deciding on whether or not to disclose a CL I ask myself how well the PC can measure the difficulty. For things which are just very uncertain (like trying to tell if someone is lying), I would not tell the CL. The PC has no way of telling how good a liar the other person is, or if they're a sociopath; the PC can't even objectively measure his own ability. There's no measuring stick.

A jump check is just about the exact opposite of that. An acrobat is a trained athlete. He knows exactly how far he can jump under different circumstances. He know if he's tired, or if the footing is sure, and how much weight he is carrying. He can see the distance, and judge for himself how hard it will be to make it. More, the acrobat has lots and lots of jumping experience. Like an Olympic athlete (who can tell you his long jump to within a couple inches every time), this PC would be very, very good at estimating how far he can jump, and how difficult any jump is.

Arguably there's enough uncertainty to say all he can guess at is a range of CC's, but I think that range is so narrow as to be meaningless. To be honest you'd have to say "It's somewhere between a 32 and a 34." That's just not worth it. Just tell him the number.

I suppose it boils down to a matter of playing styles. To me, trained athlete or not, none of that equates to telling the player "the CL is X". For me it'd be:

Oh yeah, it's well within your range.

The distance looks to be pushing it, even for you.

You've never made a leap quite that far before. You sure you're up for it?

And similiar.

[irda ranger]

DangerDwarf wrote:
I suppose it boils down to a matter of playing styles. To me, trained athlete or not, none of that equates to telling the player "the CL is X". For me it'd be:

Oh yeah, it's well within your range.

The distance looks to be pushing it, even for you.

You've never made a leap quite that far before. You sure you're up for it?

And similiar.

I totally see where you're coming from. I'd probably use the same thing, but ... I don't want to calculate jump checks. I have enough on my plate without remembering the intricacy's of one classes' abilities. My session would be more like:

"The chasm is 25' across. The far ledge is a little lower than this ledge, allowing for a bit more distance. The footing isn't so great."

I'd let the PC figure out what the CC for 25' is, and the add my my modifiers without telling him.

The tough thing about jump checks is: really good vs. really bad is a matter of inches. If my standing long jump is usually 6', a really good standing long jump or probably 7'. That's not a big difference. Frankly, I wouldn't even have a roll for a thing like this. If I had a class where jumping was a class skill, I'd write it out like a Monk ability. At this level, this is how many feet you can jump. Period.
_________________
Check out my Iron C&C House Rules: The Tombs of Akrasia

[Fizz]

irda ranger wrote:
If I had a class where jumping was a class skill, I'd write it out like a Monk ability. At this level, this is how many feet you can jump. Period.

I thought about that for my acrobat class. The problem though is it puts a hard line on what the character can do. "Hmmm... the pit is 20 feet across, and i can only jump 19 feet. Guess i won't try it."

I prefer the characters to have to make the decision, hoping they can roll that high value and make a miraculous leap to save the party... etc etc.

-Fizz

[Tadhg]

Traveller wrote:
I keep it hidden, but give a clue by telling them the general difficulty, by using descriptive words: Easy, Average, Difficult, Formidable, Staggering, Hopeless, Impossible. Doing this takes the numbers out of the equation, since I don't want the player knowing the exact number he needs. It also allows me to tell the player to roll the dice anyway if I'm bluffing.

Yep, this is pretty much what I do and it has worked very well so far.
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[DangerDwarf]

Another way, from a CK PoV. Dont worry to much about the CL for a jump. Just know that a character's base jump ability is X feet. Each success above the base attribute check (12 or 18 depending on primes) adds Y feet to the jump.

The player has no need to know the CL and the CK has a consistant method of determining success. Simply figure out the math in your head and narrate the results.

[BASH MAN]

Traveller wrote:
I keep it hidden, but give a clue by telling them the general difficulty, by using descriptive words: Easy, Average, Difficult, Formidable, Staggering, Hopeless, Impossible. Doing this takes the numbers out of the equation, since I don't want the player knowing the exact number he needs. It also allows me to tell the player to roll the dice anyway if I'm bluffing.

Yeah, I think that is the best way to do it.
_________________
Basic Action Games http://www.bashrpg.com

Check us out for free demos and downloads or visit us onFacebook.

[Traveller]

Rhuvein wrote:
Yep, this is pretty much what I do and it has worked very well so far.

Didn't you borrow that from my house rules anyway?
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

[Tadhg]

Traveller wrote:
Didn't you borrow that from my house rules anyway?

No. Actually I just meant that I have expanded my selection of verbiage from what the Troll's have defined in their book descriptions.

For instance, they have CL 1-5 as easy. Well, I'll elaborate or use others words when describing a CL of 1 vs. a CL of 5. So I use some of the same wording you mentioned.

Now, having said that, I looked at your HRs and I like what you've got, except again, I would add some more expressions to distinguish between your "difficult" and "formidable" and some of the other challenge classes.

But I don't write them down, more like think of them - on the fly and go with loose interpretations of description based on numbers.

Incidently, I'm planning to run Lion in the Ropes next, so I'm going to have an in depth look at your CL rules.

_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Traveller]

I found that the overview map in the Lion In The Ropes PDF isn't terribly easy to read due to the hand-lettered font, though I did manage to puzzle out which town was what.

As to the CL system as shown in the house rules, the key difference between mine and what most on this thread seem to agree as being the best way to present them to the player is that I have each difficulty hard-wired to a specific CL, which is opposite of the RAW.

But that's just me, being difficult.
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

[Moorcrys]

Fizz wrote:
I thought about that for my acrobat class. The problem though is it puts a hard line on what the character can do. "Hmmm... the pit is 20 feet across, and i can only jump 19 feet. Guess i won't try it."

I prefer the characters to have to make the decision, hoping they can roll that high value and make a miraculous leap to save the party... etc etc.

-Fizz

There's an earlier thread on this board with a "1st level +" acrobat class that I wrote up, and within it is also Serleran's very nice thief-acrobat conversion. I think we both used the 1st edition Unearthed Arcana as the foundation -- there might be some ideas to mine for the acrobat class you're creating, or at least a couple of folks' attempts on how to tackle jumps and tumbles etc.

I ended up being in favor of giving them a base distance that they knew they could jump with a successful check, with a +1 difficulty per foot beyond that. That way as the acrobat gains levels, they KNOW that in favorable circumstances they can jump a certain distance without fail, and anything beyond that isn't a done deal. I think the excitement in a class like the acrobat comes in whether or not you make the roll, rather than being in the dark as to what the roll actually is. Just like a fighter will know his chances to hit versus an opponent in chain mail after a few swings and a wizard which foes a charm person will affect, I think an acrobat should have a pretty good idea of the chances of making a particular jump or tumble. They've done it enough to be reasonably sure of their abilities and the strain a particular jump or roll will place on them. Now characters that aren't acrobats making a jump... that might be a different story. And just like that chain mail wearing opponent can have a trick up his sleeve (like a magical ring of protection) that throws off the fighter's guess, so you can throw in occasional surprises to trick the acrobat (slippery floors, illusions that trick the eyes regarding distance, crumbling ledges, etc.)... but IMHO they should have a good idea about it.
_________________
----------------

Moorcrys

[Fizz]

Moorcrys wrote:
There's an earlier thread on this board with a "1st level +" acrobat class that I wrote up, and within it is also Serleran's very nice thief-acrobat conversion.

Interesting. Not dissimilar from my own.

Quote:
I ended up being in favor of giving them a base distance that they knew they could jump with a successful check, with a +1 difficulty per foot beyond that.

This is rather confusing.

You give a +1 difficulty for every extra 1' cleared. (You say CR, i presume you mean CL?) But what's the base difficulty?

Say your acrobat is 5' tall. If he wants to pole vault a height of exactly 10', is it automatic (using your height x2 rule)? If it is not automatic, then what the CL of a 10' vault?

What if it's 11'? Is that a CL of 1? What if he wants to pole vault 20' (his maximum under your 4x rule)? Is that a CL of 10? That'll be about a 50-50 shot at 10th level.

-Fizz

[Moorcrys]

Quote:
This is rather confusing.

You give a +1 difficulty for every extra 1' cleared. (You say CR, i presume you mean CL?) But what's the base difficulty?

Say your acrobat is 5' tall. If he wants to pole vault a height of exactly 10', is it automatic (using your height x2 rule)? If it is not automatic, then what the CL of a 10' vault?

What if it's 11'? Is that a CL of 1? What if he wants to pole vault 20' (his maximum under your 4x rule)? Is that a CL of 10? That'll be about a 50-50 shot at 10th level.

-Fizz

Sorry, I abbreviated Challenge Rating instead of Challenge Level... I always mis-remember the phrase
Aside from thrown weapon mastery, a successful Dexterity check must be made to succeed at any of the acrobat's class-specific abilities (tightrope walking, pole vaulting, tumbling, jumping, climbing, contortionist, and pick pockets/sleight-of-hand). Since Dexterity will always be prime for an acrobat, he needs to beat a 12 to succeed:

So, for example: Arnold the 5'-tall acrobat wishes to pole vault over a 10' wall. Arnold is a 1st level acrobat with a 16 dexterity. Since the wall is exactly twice his height, he needs to beat a 12 on his Dexterity Check to succeed. He rolls a d20 and adds +3 to the roll (+1 for being a first level acrobat, +2 for a 16 Dexterity). For every foot above 10' Arnold wishes to clear with his pole-vaulting skill, a +1 is added to the CL. So if at 1st level, Arnold wanted to clear a 15' wall using pole vaulting, his die roll plus modifiers would need to beat a 17 (15' is double his height +5', so a +5 to the CL) instead of a 12.

In any event, barring magical assistance, Arnold can pole-vault no higher than 20' (4x his own height). I looked up pole-vaulting world records, and the top seems to be a little over 20' -- you could certainly bump the max limit if you wanted a more super-heroic ability, but I'm comfortable with 4x height.

So as the acrobat gains levels (and adds his level to the die rolls), minimum jumps, vaults, and tumbles get easier and easier -- a 9th level acrobat with a 16 dex should be able to pole-vault twice his height with no difficulty -- barring surprises and under normal favorable circumstances.
_________________
----------------

Moorcrys

[irda ranger]

Moorcrys wrote:
Since Dexterity will always be prime for an acrobat, he needs to beat a 12 to succeed:

Acrobats should be strength-prime. It doesn't take amazing reflexes or hand-eye coordination do an iron cross or climb a wall with finger-pinch grips. It does, however, take an almost ridulous amounts of strength. Gymnasts are consistently among the strongest guys in the room.

Moorcrys wrote:
acrobat's class-specific abilities (tightrope walking, pole vaulting, tumbling, jumping, climbing, contortionist, and pick pockets/sleight-of-hand).

Basic "Jumping" and "Climbing" should be something that any Physical prime character or monster should be good at. Those really should not be class-specific skills on the same level of "Tracking" or "Cast Spells." Anyone can do them.

Alos, I would make sure there are basic rules which explain how well all other classes are at things like Tumbling and Pole Vaulting. Arguably these are things that the Acrobat are better at, but they shouldn't be exclusive the way other Class Abilities are. I think you would be unfairly circumscribing what an athletic Barbarian or Thief or Fighter can do if you make these exclusive class abilities.

As Example:

Rule #1: This is how well a heroicly athletic person (which all non-wizard PC's are) can pole-vault with some basic training.

Rule #2: This is how Acrobats are even better than that.

Just my two cents.
_________________
Check out my Iron C&C House Rules: The Tombs of Akrasia

[Fizz]

irda ranger wrote:
Basic "Jumping" and "Climbing" should be something that any Physical prime character or monster should be good at. Those really should not be class-specific skills on the same level of "Tracking" or "Cast Spells." Anyone can do them.

Well, there's good, and then there's exceptional. Arnold Swarzenegger may be very strong, but i seriously doubt he can jump nearly as far as a properly trained athlete.

Climbing for the acrobat (in my version anyways) works just like the Rogue ability. These aren't simple climbs- this is clinging to nearly completely sheer surfaces.

Tumbling is a combination of things, in my view. It's not just rolling out of the way. It's handstands, flips, balancing, etc.

Pole Vaulting isn't simple, so i might make it exclusive. Otherwise, yes, i have no problem with a barbarian attempting a heroic jump, but he'll be inferior to the acrobat.

Ever see the Chinese acrobats, or Circque du Soleil? Those are things that go beyond what a heroic barbarian or rogue could do. That's the acrobat i envision.

-Fizz

[Moorcrys]

irda ranger wrote:
Acrobats should be strength-prime. It doesn't take amazing reflexes or hand-eye coordination do an iron cross or climb a wall with finger-pinch grips. It does, however, take an almost ridulous amounts of strength. Gymnasts are consistently among the strongest guys in the room.

First of all, where were you when I originally posted this? I could have used your advice.
That's certainly valid, and I'll rethink each class ability for its relevant attribute... and maybe change it to Strength prime... I actually have Jump listed under Strength. Pole-vaulting should as well. The problem with class-and-ability based systems is that real-world equivalents often are a combination of both... yes you need a great deal of strength to be a gynmast, but you also must be incredibly agile, have a great sense of balance, and know how to use your body beyond powering through with physical strength. And it depends on the ability... for instance, I had to learn how to walk a tightrope for a few months (don't ask) and while I'm no weakling, I certainly don't look like the dude you posted in your message. And while strength was involved it seemed to have a lot to do with balance and agility once my feet stopped hurting...

irda ranger wrote:
Basic "Jumping" and "Climbing" should be something that any Physical prime character or monster should be good at. Those really should not be class-specific skills on the same level of "Tracking" or "Cast Spells." Anyone can do them.

Yes and no... all classes should be able to jump and climb, of course. Climb, however, is also a rogue skill. I'm assuming that a Castle Keeper will know that an acrobat's jumping and climbing abilities are exceptional abilities specific to class, much like a rogue's Climb ability, and not your run of the mill jumping and climbing that everyone can attempt.

Also, Climb for rogues uses Dexterity and not Strength as its relevant Ability.

irda ranger wrote:
Alos, I would make sure there are basic rules which explain how well all other classes are at things like Tumbling and Pole Vaulting. Arguably these are things that the Acrobat are better at, but they shouldn't be exclusive the way other Class Abilities are. I think you would be unfairly circumscribing what an athletic Barbarian or Thief or Fighter can do if you make these exclusive class abilities.

As Example:

Rule #1: This is how well a heroicly athletic person (which all non-wizard PC's are) can pole-vault with some basic training.

Rule #2: This is how Acrobats are even better than that.

I agree with you to a point. There is some of that in my write up -- I list how non-acrobats can jump, tightrope walk, etc. But, really, isn't this the same as asking the PH to put in the rogue class description how easy it is for other classes to Move Silently or Hide in Shadows? If you want to be able to tumble, walk tightropes, and pole vault, be an acrobat. If you want to be able to pick pockets, open locks, move silently and hide in shadows, be a rogue. It can just as easily be said that a wizard can try to sneak and a fighter can try to hide in shadows. Sure other classes can attempt anything if the Castle Keeper so allows, but the point of archetypes is that it's their bread and butter. An athletic barbarian will have a high dex and ... an exceptionally athletic barbarian will be a barbarian/acrobat. Also, anyone can attempt to tumble if they choose, but the Tumble ability in the class I wrote up are actually 3 seperate exceptional abilities that build on what anyone can do already... it's a class-specific ability.

This is in my original write-up, but based on your comments I added this last sentence that will hopefully help out non-acrobats, particularly those with high strength. I'm going to go through and see if I can clarify somewhat in other descriptions:

JUMP (STRENGTH)

...It is assumed that non-acrobats may attempt a jump up to the minimum distance allowed for acrobats: height for standing high jumps, 1x height for standing broad jumps, and 2x height for running broad jumps. They may attempt to jump an additional 1 per bonus point modifier due to high Strength.

irda ranger wrote:
Just my two cents.

Thanks so much for your input, really. What I'm looking for is an interesting class that my players will be excited to play, something that stands on its own but which isn't too weak or too overpowered. Certainly nothing cringe-worthy. You've given me some stuff to think about and I appreciate it.
_________________
----------------

Moorcrys

[Fizz]

Moorcrys wrote:
So, for example: Arnold the 5'-tall acrobat wishes to pole vault over a 10' wall. Arnold is a 1st level acrobat with a 16 dexterity. Since the wall is exactly twice his height, he needs to beat a 12 on his Dexterity Check to succeed. He rolls a d20 and adds +3 to the roll (+1 for being a first level acrobat, +2 for a 16 Dexterity). For every foot above 10' Arnold wishes to clear with his pole-vaulting skill, a +1 is added to the CL. So if at 1st level, Arnold wanted to clear a 15' wall using pole vaulting, his die roll plus modifiers would need to beat a 17 (15' is double his height +5', so a +5 to the CL) instead of a 12.

OK, so the base height or distance corresponds to a CL of 0. And the CL increases from there. Fair enough.

What i've tried to do in my version is find a formula that avoids the hard maximum value. I too looked at the world records. The long jump is almost 30 feet. Extend this to 40 feet (since this is a fantasy game).

So a 20th level acrobat rolling a 20 on his check should jump about 40 feet. That means the CL has to be in the range of 28 or so for 40 feet. That is, 20th level + roll of 20 = 12 + CL.

But a minimum jump should be possible too, without even worrying about it. So, CL = ( distance - 10 ) x 1. I think that would work. In this case, it works out pretty similarly to yours of +1 CL per extra foot.

For a standing jump, change the 10 to a 6 and the 1 to a 3. For high, 4 and 4. And for a vault, 10 and 1.5. The resultant values and two extremes (minimum and maximum rolls) seem to work out nicely.

The idea is that this would turn the acrobat into the world's greatest leaper when he reached the highest levels, but without putting an artificial maximum upon him.

And hence my original question: how much of this should the player know?

-Fizz

[irda ranger]

Fizz wrote:
Well, there's good, and then there's exceptional. Arnold Swarzenegger may be very strong, but i seriously doubt he can jump nearly as far as a properly trained athlete.

Actually, if Arnie is anything like most body-builders, he's probably not very strong at all (for his height and size). He can lift a decent amount of weight in isolation exercises, but any well trained athlete could probably knock him over / take him down. Despite what the fantasy artwork might suggest, most barbarians probably look more like baseball players or football running backs, not Arnie, and those running backs can probably jump as far or further than any Cirque du Soleil contortionist. I stand what by what I said before about Jump. It's a question of Athleticism, unless you're playing a Wu Xia "Ninja Gaidan-like" game.

Fizz wrote:
Pole Vaulting isn't simple, so i might make it exclusive. Otherwise, yes, i have no problem with a barbarian attempting a heroic jump, but he'll be inferior to the acrobat.

Your call as CK, of course, but it's not exactly hard either. World-class pole vaulting is hard (because you have to develop specific muscles and reflexes), but the basics can be learned fairly quickly.

Fizz wrote:
Ever see the Chinese acrobats, or Circque du Soleil? Those are things that go beyond what a heroic barbarian or rogue could do. That's the acrobat i envision.

You'll note that I never challenged "Contortion" as a class skill. That is a very specialized skill, and one that takes months (if not years) of practice. It is a perfect example of a Class Ability.
_________________
Check out my Iron C&C House Rules: The Tombs of Akrasia

[Fizz]

irda ranger wrote:
Acrobats should be strength-prime. It doesn't take amazing reflexes or hand-eye coordination do an iron cross or climb a wall with finger-pinch grips. It does, however, take an almost ridulous amounts of strength. Gymnasts are consistently among the strongest guys in the room.

You make a good point about this. I had defaulted to Dex Prime myself, but a strong case for Strength can be made. Things like contortion, tumble and balance all suggest Dexterity, but Strength is key for jumping and vaulting.

Now i'm not sure which one to use.
-Fizz

[Moorcrys]

Fizz wrote:
OK, so the base height or distance corresponds to a CL of 0. And the CL increases from there. Fair enough.

What i've tried to do in my version is find a formula that avoids the hard maximum value. I too looked at the world records. The long jump is almost 30 feet. Extend this to 40 feet (since this is a fantasy game).

So a 20th level acrobat rolling a 20 on his check should be about 40 feet. That meant the CL had to be in the range of 28 or so for 40 feet. That is, 20th level + roll of 20 = 12 + CL.

But a minimum jump should be possible too, without even worrying about it. So, CL = ( distance - 10 ) x 1. I think that would work. In this case, it works out pretty similarly to yours of +1 CL per extra foot. Change the 1 and the 10 for different kinds of jumps and vaults.

The idea is that this would turn the acrobat into the world's greatest leaper when he reached the highest levels, but without putting an artificial maximum upon him.

Seems like a great formula to me. I never thought through minimum jumps distances... I guess I was figuring on letting them clear anything under the minimum written jump distance unless they were encumbered or otherwise inhibited.

The only caps I have on jumps and such are for standing high and standing broad jumps where it would just get ridiculously easy for them to make superhuman leaps (I didn't want 15 foot standing high jumps) or just too complicated to break it down into measurable bites - I don't want to stop the action while we calculate the jump difficulty. I think with a running long jump we end up relatively equal here--my 20th level acrobat (around 6' tall) with a 15 Strength could leap 23' without needing a check, so up to 42' if he got lucky.

Fizz wrote:
And hence my original question: how much of this should the player know?

-Fizz

I think he should have a very good idea of how far he can jump safely, the odds of making jumps within his ability, and jumps that would take a miracle to pull off. Again I think the tension's in the rolling of the dice, not whether or not they're kept in the dark about the odds.
_________________
----------------

Moorcrys