Class abilities as prime checks?

[capmarvel]

You still only have 2 or 3 Primes depending on race for normal checks and saves, but for your class abilities, your roll is considered Prime.

R-

So is your comment the "official way" or the "homebrew way"?

[Fizz]

You still only have 2 or 3 Primes depending on race for normal checks and saves, but for your class abilities, your roll is considered Prime.

R-

So is your comment the "official way" or the "homebrew way"?

I believe what Rigon describes is the house rule way. Many people use it. But to my knowledge, there is nothing in the PH that says class abilities are always treated as Prime.

-Fizz

[capmarvel]

I know it will "never happen" - but I really think C&C would do for a rewrite to reorganize it better - obviously not written for a raw RPG rookie in mind (or even a not so raw RPG rookie). And few games are, even the ones that claim they are.

[Fizz]

From the 4th printing of M&T page 129: " low-level characters to be 1 st -4 th level, mid-level characters to be 5 th -8 th level and high-level to be 9 th -12 th level."

Hmmm.... mine doesn't even have a page 129. I must have an earlier version. What section is that in? Maybe i can find it.

Anyway, when I said Rangers would have to 6-9th level to be as competent at Survival as a 1st level Cleric, I was accounting for the likely difference in Wisdom scores.

I think such comparisons should always be done assuming equal attributes. Otherwise you are comparing apples and oranges. Of course a character with a much higher score is going to have an advantage over another with a low score- that's the nature of attributes. But to compare the effect of primess with levels, you need to remove the attribute score as a variable.

BTW, wisdom is quite important for a ranger, so i don't think their scores would typically be that different from a cleric. I've seen a lot of high-wisdom rangers in my time. In fact one could argue that wisdom is more important to the ranger than the cleric. Whereas the ranger needs wisdom for four key skills, the cleric has only one (and maybe a couple extra spell slots).

-Fizz

[Giant2005]

From the 4th printing of M&T page 129: " low-level characters to be 1 st -4 th level, mid-level characters to be 5 th -8 th level and high-level to be 9 th -12 th level."

Hmmm.... mine doesn't even have a page 129. I must have an earlier version. What section is that in? Maybe i can find it.

It is directly after the Sentient Magic Items section. Although, if your book is shorter, I'd imagine the Land and Title section would be one of the sections it doesn't have.

[Captain_K]

If you want all thieves to be the same with only variation to be level and minor changes of 0 to 3 for score.. great, if you want that +6 difference, then let the primes rule the abilities within the class. Recall, only that class gets those abilities.. outside the class everyone else is MUCH worse at it or not at all.. so within the class, a character with the ability AND the prime is that much better than NO ability and prime or way above no ability and no prime.

Ex. 10th lvl Gnome thief with a 16 WIS (prime) goes to listen through a stone wall for the sound of a cat walking.. he could make his roll even with the -20 challenge level (base chance of 12 with +15 modifiers)... The 10th lvl human thief without the Wis prime (but has a 16 WIS anyway) would not be able to hear that cat since his base chance is 18, no gnome +3. That 38 roll is just not possible even with a natural 20 (you could rule the 20 always succeeds, but that's an exception to math). ANY other class would not even have a base chance of 18 since they do not have the ability at ALL, likely we agree all classes can hear things but to get a listen check is to hear things others cannot. The cat foot steps through a stone wall is NOT in the ability range for other classes, ever. I like to think of a class "abilities" like magic.. they are supposed to be AMAZING, nearly magical. So even when the ability seems like a mundane feat, keep it high end.

Keeping with the Prime base is 12, non-prime is 18 differential, not having the ability should be at least 6 points harder.

Ability and prime base chance 12
ability but no prime 18
No ability but prime 24
no ability and no prime 30

Seems logical. Now add in the fact that you only add your LEVEL bonus to YOUR class abilities.. the No ability tries become way out of the real of reason/chance. That said, it might be why they do not even bother creating my extra -6 and -12 I have noted above.. as levels increase, not having the abilities stops folks from making checks with higher challenge ratings.