Troll Lord Games

Most D&D-ish games have charts for attributes showing a rough scale of what they mean. For example, 2nd edition D&D has a table for Strength with these headers:
Ability Score Hit Damage Damage Adj. Weight Allowance Max Press Open Doors Lift Gates


Is there a C&C version of this type of table anywhere (can't find obviously in PHB or CKG).

If not....from someone coming over from "those other games" where would you point them to find such things like "Weight Allowance" etc?

Or how do you help them translate what they are used to into C&C terms? If they ask "well, how much an I lift?" or "what are the chance of me opening this door?" where would you direct them to?

(As an aside - I really like charts/tables and they help me understand the game better).

It's a little complicated because of primes, unless you extend the tables to account for the +6 they grant. The encumbrance rules keep changing but I think they give you some idea of weigh allowance. Also, because a "door" isn't a static thing but subject to the CK assigned CL, all you could really say is percent chance to open a CL 0 door. Which you could readily compute knowing a d20 pip is 5%.

Someone please write this up, its a great thing... INT used to roughly be an IQ score if I recall.. STR was the weight you could smoothly military press, etc. CHA was how many close friends "loved and followed you".. so do some research, make some guesses and try to quantify where you can and use examples where you cannot but a simple percent on a 3d6 bell curve would allow for the "16 represents the top X% of all humans".. kind of ranking...

So to keep this simple (for me):

You have STR Prime 12 character who we will call STRP12.

You have a STR Non-Prime 14 character who we will call STR14.

Now, is some sense STR14 is stronger than STRP12. Numbers don't lie.

But, STRP12 has trained, etc and can utilize their lesser strength more efficiently - maybe they understand leverage, etc better for example.

So in many contests STRP12 may (and probably will) actually beat STR14.

First off, is the above correct? (Pretty sure it is)

If it is true...someone might then ask is for example a STRP12 the same as say a raw STR18 (or whatever). Or is all this "apples to oranges" and a direct chart comparing these may not even make sense?

A STR check is for how you use your strength to overcome a given situation, such as moving a bolder, lifting a fallen tree, etc... Fortunately being Prime or non Prime does not affect its combat benefits, IE +1 to +3 to hit and damage.

It can get rather complicated to adjudicate. Like if they are trying to break down a door, and use a crow bar, or a heavy hammer of some kind, they should obviously get a bonus. Anyonoe who has ever moved their home a number of times, or done any work that requires lifting heavy objects, knows there is the right way to lift things, and a very painful wrong way to lift things. So those who have learned such techniques, no matter how simple and common sense they may seem after you lean them, your not Prime until you do. With INT and WIS its easier for us to see a difference between Prime versus non Prime, at least for those of us with training in Psychology. Some people are obviously very intelligent, or very experienced in the ways of the world and how people behave (WIS), but they all vary in how well they can integrate and collate that collective knowledge and apply it to all the obstacles and events that occur in their lives. Those who have that knack to do so, are Prime, those who do not, aren't.

So in general, those who are Prime, naturally/instinctually, and/or through training, know the best ways to utilize their inherent ability/knowledge in any given situation they face. This is further reflected by which Prime is required for each class. So Fighter types, obviously, are always going to know the best way to apply their STR in any given situation. Wizards are very adept at collating and interpreting a wide range of information and applying it, etc... So those who are a Fighter, and also choose to have INT as Prime, obviously could have been a mage, and still could become one. Just their life choices, or obstacles, had them become a Fighter. Who knows what the future will bring?

Thats how I look at the whole Prime versus non Prime thing, and while not perfect, it works well enough.

Page 15 of the 6th printing, 1st column, Strength heading under "The Six Attributes" heading: A character can military press 10 times their strength and lift 15 times their strength.

R-

Rigon wrote:Page 15 of the 6th printing, 1st column, Strength heading under "The Six Attributes" heading: A character can military press 10 times their strength and lift 15 times their strength.

R-

Rigon....what the Hell are you bringing hard facts into this discussion for?

And, and... READING comprehension.
Dirty bastard.

Someone had to be the bad guy.

R-

Rigon wrote:Someone had to be the bad guy.

R-

We hereby dub thee "Dark Lord Rigon"

Go0gleplex wrote:

Rigon wrote:Someone had to be the bad guy.

R-

We hereby dub thee "Dark Lord Rigon"

Seems appropriate.

R-

IS that for Prime AND non Prime, or just Prime? How much can they drag?


I knew I had seen that somewhere. Stupid of me to not figure it was in the attribute write ups, where such info has been since D&D came into existence. DOH!

For Rigon I've added a C&C STR chart to my web site.

https://sites.google.com/site/rpgstuffo ... s-crusades

capmarvel wrote:For Rigon I've added a C&C STR chart to my web site.

https://sites.google.com/site/rpgstuffo ... s-crusades

I approve this message.

R-

So capmarvel, when will you be submitting your stuff to the Domesday? Seems like a nice intro paragraph or two, your thoughts and those above plus your work?

Capmarvel, Love the chart and if we add, per the notes above something like... "under ideal weight lifting conditions, with no risk or time pressure, those are the natural limits of STR and would be a "take 10" kind of weight lift.. meaning everything is perfect, no rush, +10 to your roll. Doing the math above STRP12, assuming he's 1st level would need a 12 base check. Add level to that roll? No bonus for a 12.. So with the assumed +10 (yes that might be too high) then the chance to lift 120# overhead in a military press fashion is on anything but a 1 (12-10-1=1). Then STR14 would need a base 18.. following same logic for this PC would be 18-10-1-1 = 6 or better.. likely on a d20 but still a 30% chance to screw up the simplest of lifts under the bests of conditions that only reduce six fold to one in 20 for the guy good with STR. This would be an excellent little write up for the Domesday, very useful stuff folks..

Thanks!

Captain_K....you're going to have to write that so a "newbie" gets it and isn't scared by all that math. They'll go running back to D&D if they see that a STR check in C&C takes a slide rule to figure out.

capmarvel wrote:Captain_K....you're going to have to write that so a "newbie" gets it and isn't scared by all that math. They'll go running back to D&D if they see that a STR check in C&C takes a slide rule to figure out.

Don't sweat it... The 10x/15x rule for what you can press/lift is good. Want to go beyond that? Time to break out a die and make a Strength SIEGE check.

Want to push open a stuck door, barrel through a barricaded door, bust down a locked door? SIEGE check with the Challenge Level set appropriately. For example in the modern world, you standard hollow core interior door might not even require a check to bust it down, but if barricaded with a chair might come with a CL0 check which would probably end up busting out the portion of the door that isn't barricaded, or could push the barricade aside, for a heavier barricade like a dresser, increase the CL based on the object, here perhaps a CL2. Still apply common sense if the character's description has them hitting it higher than the dresser, the door splinters even if the check fails. A modern solid wood exterior door might be a CL2 to start, increase for barricades and locks, what about the door jamb? A steel door might be CL3 with a wooden door frame, CL4 with a steel door frame. Take that to a dungeon and make the call on how thick the door is, what it is anchored to, and how it is locked.

Do something similar for Lifting Gates/Bending Bars, and even breaking down magically held doors. Apply a challenge level appropriate to the challenge. For those magically held doors, perhaps modified by the caster level or some such. To me, the trick with SIEGE is determining when you add the player level or not. Something like lifting a gate, I wouldn't, just being higher level doesn't make it easier, others thoughts may vary, to me it just doesn't make sense. BtB you would get your level as a modifier, to me that just strains me suspension of disbelief. Now, for breaking down a magically held door I would allow the level modifier to the roll since I would apply the caster level to the challenge level of the test.

The old-school technique of making rulings instead of always relying on the rules is the way to go. Gary once said the great secret of RPG's that you really don't need any rules. This is make believe, this is for fun, rules provide a framework, use them, abuse them, break them, but try and be consistent in your rulings, except for times when there is a reason for the inconsistency.

As for what the characters can carry, look at the EV system, though I prefer the 4th printing system over current. Still even the current works well at abstracting encumbrance.

Gary said "you don't need rules"...yet took his simple, 20 page game and kept expanding it into hundreds of pages for AD&D.

Just dug out my AD&D 1e book.

Page 9 is only about STR. How much you can lift, racial limits, etc. Charts, text - everything. If included the whack-a-doo 18 STR percentage stuff.

Ah the good old days when people explained stuff......


PS - no lie, my first ever AD&D character rolled a ligit 18/00 STR. And I have witnesses!

I like a chart for STR, INT, WIS, CHA... examples of what that might mean.. STR is military press under ideal conditions, INT is IQ/10, DEX... OK it gets tough.. but it would be nice if someone tries a page or two on this.. would love to add it to Domesday..

PS Slide rule.. come on, I'm old but not that old...