Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

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dawnrazor
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Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by dawnrazor »

I'm contemplating chucking the xp thing altogether and just level up the PCs when I think it's appropriate.

Of course, this will mean that all classes level simultaneously and so on, which might be a bit heretical for some old schoolers.
However, I really cannot see the advantage of counting xp by the book and of using separate xp tables.

Thing is that the hunt for xp in order to level up controls the game way too much and besides that I really hate keeping track of xp and leveling thresholds. If that ain't "Papers & Paychecks" I don't know what is...

I mean, I steer the amount of xp that I distribute and I place treasure in relation to keeping the level progression at a pace that benefits my campaign anyway, so I have trouble seeing the absolute benefits of the bean counting...

Another thing is that because you get xp for (i) defeating monsters and (ii) gold & treasure, those are the activities that the PCs will want to do, which ultimately steers the adventures as well.
In my last campaign (Blood & Treasure RPG) I tried out giving xp for good roleplaying, attending the session, being the player that contributed the most to the session, and other different "victory conditions". It worked very well, but I still had to use an Excel sheet to track it all. And it lead to the thought of skipping xp entirely.

Has anyone tried this for C&C? How did it work? Any other thoughts on the subject?

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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by Treebore »

Yep. Did this for my last campaign, where I ran a bunch of the old classic adventures for the group. I leveled them as needed for the next module, so sometimes they went through a module and into a second without leveling. They had some minor issues with it, because they liked to see that they were progressing, and no longer saw that. On my side of things, I really enjoyed not having to keep track of XP's.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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dawnrazor
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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by dawnrazor »

Thanks Treebore,
That sounds great - about what I would like to achieve.
As for what the players think - just ask one of them to be "xp accountant" and in a few sessions they will beg for milestones...;)

Luckily, I think that my players couldn't care less - but then again, they never cease to surprise you...

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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by Treebore »

dawnrazor wrote:Thanks Treebore,
That sounds great - about what I would like to achieve.
As for what the players think - just ask one of them to be "xp accountant" and in a few sessions they will beg for milestones...;)

Luckily, I think that my players couldn't care less - but then again, they never cease to surprise you...
Like I said, it was a minor issue, they kept playing and having a good time. It was just very tedious for me, because I made the mistake of committing to running the adventures as written, for that "shared experience" your supposed to have with such modules. I will never do that again.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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dawnrazor
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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by dawnrazor »

Code: Select all

[code]
[/code]Someone on some forum (or Google plus) recommended the following leveling scheme, which I think would fit my games:

Level No of sessions Cumulative session
1 1 1
2 2 2-3
3 4 4-7
4 8 8-15
5 8 16-23
6 8 24-31
7 8 32-39
8 8 40-47
9 8 48-55
10 8 56-63

Basic formula: 1-2-4-8-8-8-8 etc.

EDIT: Can't seem to get the table columns to line up correctly - sorry about that...

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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by DMMike »

Frankly I do that in Victorious in my home game. I look at the PC's xp charts and just wing it from there. High xp characters might only level half as much as the lower xp characters. Since you're eyeballing it, it doesn't have to be exactly "balanced" (God I hate that word!) so long as the characters with the classes that give more goodies levels slowers than the core classes, IMO it works fine.

personally I think the C&C/D&D xp system is mostly for new CK's/DM's. Once they run a few games with it BTB they get used to the game and player expectations. Then they can house rule!

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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by alcyone »

I do one XP for the group within reason, but I don't just say, you leveled. It's important to punish multiclassers in whatever way possible.
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dawnrazor
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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by dawnrazor »

Thanks everyone for the input.

Hmm...you've got a point there with the multi-classers...

Will think some more on this...

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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by Captain_K »

You are so going to want to read the next Domesday...I think you will like the greatly simplified system which still keeps all the classes in line.. PLUS is nearly no effort for the CK and ALL nasty book keeping is gone, ONLY the fun stuff of each player tracking their progress each game heading toward "leveling up".. I won't post it all here since its due out before August.. BUT I would be more than happy to PM it to you Dawnrazor for review, use, comment and edit. If we can make it better together I'm all in co-author. If you still don't like it when we're done, then why not tidy your methods up and we'll publish TWO methods for simplified exp pts.
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koralas
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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by koralas »

dawnrazor wrote:

Code: Select all

[code]
[/code]Someone on some forum (or Google plus) recommended the following leveling scheme, which I think would fit my games:

Level No of sessions Cumulative session
1 1 1
2 2 2-3
3 4 4-7
4 8 8-15
5 8 16-23
6 8 24-31
7 8 32-39
8 8 40-47
9 8 48-55
10 8 56-63

Basic formula: 1-2-4-8-8-8-8 etc.

EDIT: Can't seem to get the table columns to line up correctly - sorry about that...
Make the table using Notepad or another mono-spaced text editor. You can then use a code block to preserve the mono-spaced font in the forums. I quoted your message, and simply wrapped your table with the code tags and it looks like this.

Code: Select all

Level	No of sessions	Cumulative session
 1	        1	                        1
 2	        2	                        2-3
 3	        4	                        4-7
 4	        8	                        8-15
 5	        8	                        16-23
 6	        8	                        24-31
 7	        8	                        32-39
 8	        8	                        40-47
 9	        8	                        48-55
10	        8	                        56-63
The whole thing looks like this when entering it (ignore that it is in a code box) -

Code: Select all

[code]Level	No of sessions	Cumulative session
 1	        1	                        1
 2	        2	                        2-3
 3	        4	                        4-7
 4	        8	                        8-15
 5	        8	                        16-23
 6	        8	                        24-31
 7	        8	                        32-39
 8	        8	                        40-47
 9	        8	                        48-55
10	        8	                        56-63
[/code]
Maybe some day we will have BBCode tables available to us here in the Trolls forums, would love that, use it at Dragonsfoot when putting in tables.

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Captain_K
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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by Captain_K »

I've found my group likes leveling up every X games.. our time is limited and our game time is dolled out regularly.. so for us advancement we thought would be more or less linear. We jointly feel that a level (on average) every 3-5 games is about right. For us that means PC (on average) level up every 3 to 6 months calendar time.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by Go0gleplex »

If you are running a free sandbox game...meaning no modules and letting the players roam in your world as they will with just stuff popping up as they stick their noses into it...not so sure there are benchmarks you can use for this method, or at least not as easily as I understand things. But if you can make it work for you and your players, good luck. :)
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koralas
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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by koralas »

Aergraith wrote:I do one XP for the group within reason, but I don't just say, you leveled. It's important to punish multiclassers in whatever way possible.
I don't know that I would say punish, but slow down, yes.

koralas
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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by koralas »

The only issue I really see is the classes are not balanced at a given level. A 7th level Rogue is not equivalent to a 7th level Fighter, and definitely not to a 7th level Paladin. I have bandied about session based leveling, this is something I had come up with. The number listed is the number of sessions required to move from the current level to the next. It is calculated as follows ROUND((ClassXP/FighterXP)*(Level-1 [capped at 8])). Here the Fighter is used as the base class for level progression, so it will advance from 1st to 2nd after one session, 2nd to 3rd after 2 additional sessions, and so on. The other classes will progress in a non-linear format based on the XP chart. The players, or the CK, simply keeps track of the number of sessions since the last level progression, when the threshold is met, the character may level up, and the counter is reset. Multi-class characters simply must meet the progression for each class, but earns the sessions differently depending on if you are using the traditional or the C&C methods of multi-classing as shown below -

For traditional multiclassing
  • Earn session points at a rate of the # of sessions divided by the # of classes
  • After 12 sessions a Fighter/Wizard will have earned 6 session points in each class, thus it is a F/W 4/3 (Fighter: 1+2+3=6 with 0 session points, Wizard: 1+2=3 with 3 session points the wizard class will level up after the next session)
  • After 12 sessions a Fighter/Wizard/Rogue will have 4 session points in each class, so it will be F/W/R 3/3/4 (with session points of 1/0/1 needing 2 to go up as a fighter or rogue, an 3 as a wizard)
  • For contrast a single-classed Fighter, after 12 sessions would be 5th level (1+2+3+4) with 2 session points, leaving 3 more sessions to leveling up to 6th level
For C&C multi-classing
  • If using the class and a half rules, add the full class session requirement to one half of the1/2 class session requirement and advance as a single class
  • If using the C&C multiclass rules, simply add the two (or more) session requirements together, and advance as a single class
Here is what I came up with as a chart using the formula above -

Code: Select all

Level  Fighter Ranger Rogue  Assassin    Barbarian  Monk  Wizard  Illusionist   Cleric  Druid   Knight   Paladin  Bard
  1      0       0       0        0           0       0      0          0          0      0        0        0       0
  2      1       1       1        1           1       1      1          1          1      1        1        1       1
  3      2       2       1        1           2       2      2          2          2      2        2        3       2
  4      3       3       2        2           3       3      4          4          3      3        3        4       2
  5      4       4       2        3           4       4      5          5          4      4        4        6       3
  6      5       5       3        4           6       5      6          6          5      5        5        7       4
  7      6       6       4        4           7       7      7          7          6      6        7        8       5
  8      7       8       4        5           8       8      9          9          7      7        8       10       6
  9      8       9       5        6           9       9     10         10          8      8        9       11       7
 10      8       9       5        6           9       9     10         10          8      8        9       11       7
 11      8       9       5        6           9       9     10         10          8      8        9       11       7
 12      8       9       5        6           9       9     10         10          8      8        9       11       7

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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by Treebore »

Yeah, I did have multi classes in my campaign mentioned above, and I delayed their advance a session or two, depending on how much was accomplished. I think one time I even went 3 sessions before allowing them to level.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Captain_K
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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by Captain_K »

Guys, I think I got it all taken care of.. please see the Domesday before you do too much new work.. or email me (pm) and I'll mail you the method, but I do not want to place it here since its already edited and in the next issue. :P
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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by anvil242 »

I just announce how much XP they got for that session and send them home. I do not understand the book keeping complaint, since I leave that to the players completely. I have too much to do to worry about keeping track. I have yet to catch my players cheating on this, but I am also pretty generous with handing out levels at the end of a big story arc.

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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by jdizzy001 »

I've been leveling at milestones for years now. Once I dropped xp from my games i never looked back.
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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by Buttmonkey »

anvil242 wrote:I just announce how much XP they got for that session and send them home. I do not understand the book keeping complaint, since I leave that to the players completely. I have too much to do to worry about keeping track. I have yet to catch my players cheating on this, but I am also pretty generous with handing out levels at the end of a big story arc.
My problem isn't players cheating. Rather, they are incompetent at tracking it themselves. Chaos would reign if I didn't track it myself.
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Captain_K
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Re: Anyone using milestones instead of xp for C&C?

Post by Captain_K »

I don't like adding up experience from monster (per hit point) and exp for magic items, for gold, etc... all that book keeping to hand out is a pain to me. The PCs keep track of it usually well since its how they advance.. but getting it to them as the CK is what I want gone...
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