Illusionist's Sharp Senses

[Jynx]

How about just automatically assuming that the character has a PRIME in whatever ability they are using to perform a 'CLASS SKILL'. That way there is no arguing that one character has a better chance at doing something not in their 'CLASS SKILLS' as compared to the other character who is attempting the same thing but has a CLASS SKILL in that attempt but no Prime.

just a thought. Make sit simple to use.

[irda ranger]

Jynx wrote:
How about just automatically assuming that the character has a PRIME in whatever ability they are using to perform a 'CLASS SKILL'. That way there is no arguing that one character has a better chance at doing something not in their 'CLASS SKILLS' as compared to the other character who is attempting the same thing but has a CLASS SKILL in that attempt but no Prime.

just a thought. Make sit simple to use.

Er, no. You choice of Primes define the character. Ignoring the Primes your class has class abilities in isn't smart, but you are free to do so.

Luckily, most classes have the majority on their class skills in this required Prime stat. The Ranger is the exception, so I have house-ruled the Ranger to require Wis-Prime instead of Strenght.

Your suggestion doesn't even address the issue, however, since we're talking about a Saving Throw, not a Class Ability, and an Illusionist will still want to put his highest stat into Int instead of Wis, for the bonus spells and other related benefits.
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[gideon_thorne]

irda ranger wrote:
Your suggestion doesn't even address the issue, however, since we're talking about a Saving Throw, not a Class Ability, and an Illusionist will still want to put his highest stat into Int instead of Wis, for the bonus spells and other related benefits.

Possibly. The above depends on the sort of character one wants to make. My C&C illusionist has his highest stat in wisdom. He's inightful as opposed to brilliant. ^_^
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[Moorcrys]

irda ranger wrote:
I just had a chance to read the rule for myself last night. There is NO reference to having to make a check of any kind. You just get a bonus, period. There's also no mention of the fact that the saving throw would be based on Wisdom instead of Intelligence, like it is for everyone else. I would expect that if the Trolls meant to make a change to the default rules, they would have been a bit more explicit about it.

I totally agree with you. The responses in this thread spring from being told that is not the case, and that according to those who wrote the rule the intent was that we are meant to use Wisdom as an illusionist's saving throw versus illusion... something I don't find supported in the book in any way either. I was trying to find some way where you could force Wisdom into the equation, were you a stickler for using it for some reason. I would just use the straight bonus... 8)
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Moorcrys

[Jynx]

irda ranger wrote:
Er, no. You choice of Primes define the character. Ignoring the Primes your class has class abilities in isn't smart, but you are free to do so.

Luckily, most classes have the majority on their class skills in this required Prime stat. The Ranger is the exception, so I have house-ruled the Ranger to require Wis-Prime instead of Strenght.

Your suggestion doesn't even address the issue, however, since we're talking about a Saving Throw, not a Class Ability, and an Illusionist will still want to put his highest stat into Int instead of Wis, for the bonus spells and other related benefits.

I missed the SAVING THROW twist.. sorry.

However, I am not ignoring the Primes in my example. The prime bonus would still apply only if you have a PRIME in that ability, but if it's a class skill then add the bonus. I use the +6 instead of the 12/18 base, so in my games any class attempting a class related function gets the +6 regardless of Prime. In the case of the SAVING THROW, I would argue that ading the +6 makes sense in this case since it is tied directly to the class abiltiies/skills. So if you are a DM using the 12/18 then start the base at 12 otherwise add 6 if you do it the other way.

I don't see it as breaking anything, just making sense of something I don't like.

Cheers!

[Jungger]

[/quote]However, I am not ignoring the Primes in my example. The prime bonus would still apply only if you have a PRIME in that ability, but if it's a class skill then add the bonus. I use the +6 instead of the 12/18 base, so in my games any class attempting a class related function gets the +6 regardless of Prime. In the case of the SAVING THROW, I would argue that ading the +6 makes sense in this case since it is tied directly to the class abiltiies/skills. So if you are a DM using the 12/18 then start the base at 12 otherwise add 6 if you do it the other way.

I don't see it as breaking anything, just making sense of something I don't like.

Cheers![/quote]

I think I am going to use this as well and here is why-

Any non-human fighter/ rogue is going to be worse at F/D traps then any straight rogue. That to me, is limiting things too much rather than opening up options so, I'll grant all class skills to act as primes but only for the purposes of rolling for the skills.

If this causes any problems then I'll have to find another way of dealing with it.

[irda ranger]

Jungger wrote:
I think I am going to use this as well and here is why-

Any non-human fighter/ rogue is going to be worse at F/D traps then any straight rogue. That to me, is limiting things too much rather than opening up options so, I'll grant all class skills to act as primes but only for the purposes of rolling for the skills.

If this causes any problems then I'll have to find another way of dealing with it.

This is different than the Illusionist situation we are discussing. Choosing to be multi-class always involves trade-offs. So does the choice between human and non-human. Your rule makes the choice of Primes much less relevant, which to my mind is a "Bad Thing"(tm). Primes are what make one character different than another.
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[Fizz]

I agree with irda.

Treating class abilities as Primes removes most of the reason for having Primes in the first place.

Every rogue will be just like every other rogue for all things rogueish. Every ranger will be just as good at tracking and hiding as every other ranger.

The only thing that will distinguish characters will be how well they perform outside of class abilities. And since those are often covered by the abilities of other classes, Primes will have little effect.

Nope- class abilities should not be considered Primes.

-Fizz

[anglefish]

Actually, one way to think of the "a Wisdom check gives you an innate sense of wrong illusions" is that the Illusionist now gets TWO rolls against an illusion.

A Wisdom check to see if his mystic sense picks up something and then an intellgence check to disbelieve like other classes do. Character levels to be applied to both checks of course.

[Jungger]

irda ranger wrote:
This is different than the Illusionist situation we are discussing. Choosing to be multi-class always involves trade-offs. So does the choice between human and non-human. Your rule makes the choice of Primes much less relevant, which to my mind is a "Bad Thing"(tm). Primes are what make one character different than another.

The trade off for multi-classing is the dividing of exp as far as I am concerned. Another thing is that all non-human Rangers must take Str and Wis as primes if they want to be reliable trackers and that just seems too cookie cutter for me. As to making Primes much less relevant, that would be true but only in the case of the class skill. I just dont see it as rocking the boat. Less relevant? Yes, but not much. In fact, to me, this opens more options for character diversity.

If my */ rogue is not *reliable* at disarming traps for the party then there is no way I would play one. There are no "points" to bump it up at higher levels. He either has it or he doesn't. And giving the rogue F/D traps at prime is only for that skill and deciphering. Not for saves or anything else Int related. Again, I dont see the problem. In fact it opens the door for other kinds of */Rogues or even single class rogues who are non-human. No more cookie cutter Dex/ Int primes, which too me is the only way too go as the game stands.

Anyway, peace! And I am still up for suggestions if anyone has any but so far this seems to be the lesser of the evils.

[Jynx]

irda ranger wrote:
This is different than the Illusionist situation we are discussing.

Understood you are discussin the illusionist ability, but why can the idea not be used on a save as well?

fizz wrote:
Treating class abilities as Primes removes most of the reason for having Primes in the first place.

Every rogue will be just like every other rogue for all things rogueish. Every ranger will be just as good at tracking and hiding as every other ranger.

The only thing that will distinguish characters will be how well they perform outside of class abilities. And since those are often covered by the abilities of other classes, Primes will have little effect.

I don't think so since the primes still stand for what they were in the first place with the exception of class related skills/saves/abilities.

The notion that every rogue will be just like every other rogue is not a problem to me or to my players, since what makes a character different is not his statistical probablity rather the personality and character background.

It was just a suggestion is all! Something that I'm going to be using and obviously something that has inspired someone else on these boards to use as well. If I find any reason not to use it then I'll reconsider it.

[irda ranger]

Jungger wrote:
Another thing is that all non-human Rangers must take Str and Wis as primes if they want to be reliable trackers and that just seems too cookie cutter for me.

This is true. That's why IMC Ranger's are required to be Wis-Prime, not Str-Prime.

Jungger wrote:
If my */ rogue is not *reliable* at disarming traps for the party then there is no way I would play one. There are no "points" to bump it up at higher levels.

Well, a non-Rogue can't even attempt to disarm traps, and you still add your level. You're not as good as an Int-Prime character, but you're not useless either.

There are also a number of proposed Skill systems which might allow you to compensate for that a bit. As a CK I would certainly allow you to roleplay finding a "trap master" to mentor you. Spend some time and EP for a bonus to make up some of the difference. That sort of thing.

Jungger wrote:
And I am still up for suggestions if anyone has any but so far this seems to be the lesser of the evils.

Well, there's Skill Systems, as I mentioned. Also, Gideon_throne does not require anyone to take any particular Prime at all (you could be an Fighter with Dex/Wis, for instance). I think that's too free form, but I have changed Rangers to Wis-Prime to deal with the Tracking problem you mentioned. A house rule I am considering is allowing certain classes to choose between two Primes as their "mandatory" Prime.
Proposed Rule:

Rogue: Int or Dex

Assassin: Dex or Chr
The Caveat:

As a word of warning, however, I would not dilute the power of Primes too far. Besides the fact that I think they're one of the coolest things about C&C, the third Prime is a human's only racial ability. If you consider what elves, dwarves, etc. get (darkvision, enhanced senses, combat bonuses, etc.), that 3rd Prime better be darn important, or we're back to the "bad old days" when there was no reason at all to play a human. With Primes being very important, humans are a compelling race to play. That third Prime is awesome. Make that 3rd prime superfluous, and .... welcome to back to AD&D 2e where everyone and their brother was playing a drow, half-ogre, half-dragon, aasimar or githzerai.
The Final Word:

If you want cool racial abilities, play a demi-human. If you want to be the best at your class, play a human.
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[Jungger]

[/quote]Proposed Rule:

Rogue: Int or Dex

Assassin: Dex or Chr[/quote]

I have often thought that having two possible primes to pick from is a good way of doing things. Good show. Certainly, humans having three primes is a wonderful way to portray them truley making them contenders but on the other hand, I think I am a bit disappointed in the lack of variety in choice of primes (IMO) for non-humans. I would keep it mandatory that multi-class characters have the class prime however.

[/quote]There are also a number of proposed Skill systems which might allow you to compensate for that a bit. As a CK I would certainly allow you to roleplay finding a "trap master" to mentor you. Spend some time and EP for a bonus to make up some of the difference. That sort of thing.[/quote]

This is another possibility and thanks you for the suggestion. I take a certain comfort by making class skills act as primes because it reminds me of AD&D. However, if my way causes problems, your suggestion certainly would work.

[/quote]Make that 3rd prime superfluous, and .... welcome to back to AD&D 2e where everyone and their brother was playing a drow, half-ogre, half-dragon, aasimar or githzerai.[/quote]

Thank God we never got into that crap. On occasion however, we did get games with an overabundance of elves which got annoying. This is another reason why I wish someone would put a bullet in 3x D&D in a hurry.

[irda ranger]

Jungger wrote:
I think I am a bit disappointed in the lack of variety in choice of primes (IMO) for non-humans.

I'm not. I think the racial abilities are really good, and a fair trade for the lack of a third Prime. If you want variety in choice of Primes, play a human.
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[Jungger]

irda ranger wrote:
I'm not. I think the racial abilities are really good, and a fair trade for the lack of a third Prime. If you want variety in choice of Primes, play a human.

Haha. Round and round we go...