Dungeon Question

tcabril · Post by **tcabril** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:35 pm

Before I get to my question - a bit of background.

I am a dungeon fanatic - I love designing and runnig PC's through dungeons as well as taking my own PC through one (provided it done well). Though I wish I still had it - I once had designed a 300+ room dungeon (about 12 levels if I remember correctly) for a AD&D 2nd ed game I ran about 15 years ago (eek I am getting old).

I hope to start my first C&C game (with some Hackmaster elements and AD&D elements thrown in) and I was just curious...

What do you think of as a good sized dungeon for 1st level characters? I know it is an odd question but I just finished drawing up the first dungeon for my game and it has 67 rooms!!! Which is fine by me - this is more a curiosity question than anything else.

Just picking all ya brains here 8)

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:21 pm

Depending on the size and strength of the group, I'd say around 6 encounters or events seems fair. At least, that's what I generally work with, per adventure.

But not all of those six encounters should be combat-oriented, in my opinion. I'm fond of throwing in traps, puzzles. red herrings, and the like. Especially at the lower levels, when nonstop combat can easily result in a TPK.

But also bear in mind, I tend to run relatively short 1 - 2 hour gaming sessions.

tcabril · Post by **tcabril** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:25 pm

My problem is that I tend to make huge dungeons that take upwards of 10+ game sessions to complete.

In college I ran a huge dungeon (not my biggest) that took most of Sophmore year to run - took the PC's from 1st through 6th level (could have been higher level but I don't pull punches and you start from first if you get killed - it sounds mean but I am an old school gamer).

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:25 pm

Seasoned dungoen guy here too! As for how big, well that of course depends on your design. You could have large dungeons that pose little overall danger (spreadout if you will). Or you could have level appropriate small dungeons with only a few rooms.

In overall design, I like to have a larg(er) dungoen design so that there are little niches of "safehavens" to rest in just in case the PCs get caught in some thing way too difficult.

This is a tough question to answer overall, however.

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tcabril · Post by **tcabril** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:34 pm

Thanks Omote!!

I knew it was a tough question to answer - what I hoped for was some cool discussions. I may have gone about it in the wrong way but any discourse is good in my opinion.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:40 pm

tcabril wrote:
What do you think of as a good sized dungeon for 1st level characters? I know it is an odd question but I just finished drawing up the first dungeon for my game and it has 67 rooms!!! Which is fine by me - this is more a curiosity question than anything else.

Just picking all ya brains here 8)

Thats a good start, for your first level. I've dungeons that have upwards of 150 rooms per level and would take years to complete. ^_^
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irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:58 pm

It's less a question of "dungeon size" than "how long can they go without rest and recup?". If there are ways to heal up in the dungeon (and food, water, light, and other resources can be found), there's no practical limit to size. It's more a question then of "Are the PC's getting bored with this?"

I don't really play that way myself, though. My dungeons are usually fairly small affairs (by your standards). A goblin cave-system here, a mummy's underground temple there. That sort of thing.

It could also be a question of what we call a "dungeon", however. I have had adventures that took place in cities which had been buried by cave-ins, or were built underground for some reason. I don't really think of those as "dungeons", though. I don't expect the PC's to "clear every room" of an underground environment like Xak Tsaroth, any more than I expect them to clear every home and shop in Zhentil Keep or Cthol Murgo. It's kind of assumed that a "city" will have havens, inns, allies, enemies, bad parts of town, etc. It's beyond my realm of belief that the PC's could really clear our a 600 room dungeon without the inhabitants thereof figuring out what was going on and unite (temporarily) to repel the invaders (i.e., the "ambush and TPK" scenario). Only the most fractious of dungeon inhabitants would not be willing to do this in the face of a mortal threat.
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Nelzie · Post by **Nelzie** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:05 pm

Depends upon the story you want to tell.

The first dungeon in my current campaign had only 10 rooms total with conflict only happening in two of the rooms, the rest was "flavor" rooms, mostly empty. It was the ruins of an old elven fortress that was buried under a mountain slide.

The party came close to dying.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:25 pm

There's a good point in here ~ that is to say, if there is a good story involved in the dungeon, who cates how big the delve is?! If there are a few places that the PCs can rest, or resupply, and the game session continues to go good, why not 500+ rooms per level?!

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Mhu Thulan · Post by **Mhu Thulan** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:51 am

tcabril wrote:
My problem is that I tend to make huge dungeons that take upwards of 10+ game sessions to complete.

Who says that dungeons need to be completeable?

There's been a lot of talk on Dragonsfoot lately about 'megadungeons' or 'campaign dungeons' (as distinct from the 'adventure dungeons'). The idea that a dungeon can be a `living' environment that adventurers return to again and again. As their levels and knowledge increases they will delve deeper and deeper, but there's no realistic possibility that they'll ever 'clear' it. Gygax's Greyhawk dungeon is of course the classic example.

Excellent thread on the topic here:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18710

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:17 am

I don't bother with how big, and just let the dice tell me how much they want me to do. I prefer, and love, random generation....

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:50 am

serleran wrote:
I don't bother with how big, and just let the dice tell me how much they want me to do. I prefer, and love, random generation....

I'll admit that for a long time random dungeons really bothered me. I'm not OCD about needing all the details of "Why" and "What for", but I need things to "make sense" in at least the general outline, and random dungeons just don't. They bothered me the way a map with a tropical jungle next to a glacier would bother me.

But I got over it. I came up with the idea of "cosmological rationalization." Now when I make a campaign world I invent a "reason" for random dungeons. Some reasons have included:

1. A "march" of gated in, insane Modrons that swept through the world building things at random centuries ago.

2. Rock-eating Dire worms hollowed out random tunnels. The subterranean races then just "put some finishing touches" on the caves already in place.

3. Gully dwarves.

4. A unique type of undead or golem "builder" just keeps plugging away.

Etc.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:54 am

Oh, my dungeon building system randomizes who built it, where, and other things, like how old it is... it even gives it a purpose, like prison, religious structure, or whatever, with an option for the truly bizarre like "experiment."

That way, I have a rough skeleton to flesh the rolls from, but its still all random in outcome, if one doesn't manipulate it. Of course, my method was based on the 1e DMG, but expanded to 24 pages...

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:04 am

serleran wrote:
Oh, my dungeon building system randomizes who built it, where, and other things, like how old it is... it even gives it a purpose, like prison, religious structure, or whatever, with an option for the truly bizarre like "experiment." That way, I have a rough skeleton to flesh the rolls from, but its still all random in outcome, if one doesn't manipulate it. Of course, my method was based on the 1e DMG, but expanded to 24 pages...

You wouldn't happen to have that in an electronic format, would you?
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:14 am

Yep. Bookmarked pdf, in fact, or Word.

However, the status of its availability is somewhat limited, since I have not heard from Steve or Davis if they are interested in it for the CKG. I know I need playtesters for it, other than myself... and someone on these boards got it, but never told me what they think of it. So, if you agree to a voluntary, and implied NDA (so no going around giving it to other people, or disclosing its contents) then I think it might be ok... I have an email address.

Should be easy to find.

Mythago · Post by **Mythago** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:39 pm

I prefer my 'dungeons' to be on the shorter and sweeter end of the scale -thats is to say well planned and succinct in delivering the story of the game. I am very wary of dungeon fatigue setting in with players - another door another room etc.

I'm thinking of handling Mega city underground complexes as narrative stage sets i.e. vaguely mapped out within which I place 'enconter zones' which are detailed where the action is staged to take the story forward. Time would also contract and expand depending on the action.

Random dungeons reminds me of Adbvanced heroquest boardgame - not my bag.

just my 2p.

Alex D

simontmn · Post by **simontmn** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:12 am

For a 'campaign dungeon' I think something like Endless Tunnels of Enlandin (at dragonsfoot dot org) is ideal; around 25-30 rooms per level, with each dungeon level equating roughly to an experience level. At 5-6 encounters per session, that's 5 sessions to clear the dungeon level & level up.

By contrast, a 'single session' dungeon should have ca 5-6 encounters, likewise.

Mhu Thulan · Post by **Mhu Thulan** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:18 am

simontmn wrote:
For a 'campaign dungeon' I think something like Endless Tunnels of Enlandin (at dragonsfoot dot org) is ideal; around 25-30 rooms per level, with each dungeon level equating roughly to an experience level. At 5-6 encounters per session, that's 5 sessions to clear the dungeon level & level up.

I think you've kind of missed the point of a 'campaign dungeon' - if it can be cleared at all, it's an 'adventure dungeon', although it might be a very large one.

A true campaign dungeon is more like a city or an overland region - it's a living (super-) organism, which persists and and changes over time, and is much "bigger" in significance than any one adventuring group.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:49 pm

Mhu Thulan wrote:
A true campaign dungeon is more like a city or an overland region - it's a living (super-) organism, which persists and and changes over time, and is much "bigger" in significance than any one adventuring group.

Well said. Campaigns such as this can be absolutely fantastic if the CK understands that cultures evolve differently, and really make the dungeon a "living" entity all it's own, just like any city.

..........................................Omote

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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:57 pm

I'm working on the tomb level of my Rose Manor dungeon now. I'm just now at the third level and deciding on whether to go further or drop a clue to one of the burned down mansions in the area. And for me these levels are huge 30+ rooms per level and some neat twists.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:00 pm

Big dungeons are cool, but JG for some reason your short description screams NEW MANOR DUGNEON TO PLUNDER! Sounds very cool.
Any relation to Rose Red? Just wondering.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:21 pm

Omote wrote:
Big dungeons are cool, but JG for some reason your short description screams NEW MANOR DUGNEON TO PLUNDER! Sounds very cool.
Any relation to Rose Red? Just wondering.
.............................................Omote

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Rose Manor has been a project that I was working on during my 3e days. The basic story is that the Drathemere family was granted some land and formed a noble house named after them. A war breaks out and the oldest sone fights in it and returns but changed.

When the patron of the family dies a younger brother is chosen to head the family sinking Silas deeper into his change. Then something happens that cuts their lands off from the outside world. Silas is found to have been taken over by a demonlord. Some nasty things go on, which are not fit for public consumption at this point.

Silas burns down his sister's manor to take a child from her, kills his servants and priests, kills off other members of his family and disappears. The lands are rediscovered. Teh five mansions that sat on the hills of the lands are in ruins except for the one owned by Silas called "Rose Manor".

I have a rough layout of the lands of Belvania (the Drathemere family lands) and the mansions. The tomb is the first discovered dungeon and will open up the story to the players. Which means the deeper they get in the more story and secrets they uncover. The other mansions will be open to exploration and "Rose Manor" with it's oddities, sealed off rooms, Death Knight guarded garden and other things will be the climax of it.

Definately something I will be working on for awhile.

And Rose Manor came from the Stained Glass door of an old friends parents house.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:10 pm

Very cool stuff! Thanks for sharing.
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Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:57 am

I agree with Omote!

I'd never be able to CK that type of game but as Ilove to read Poe & King I'd love to be a player!

JG your not moving to the Flordia pan handle in the next year or willing to hold this game off till I retire out of the AF in 5-7 & move back to NE Ok years are you?

I tend not to be a big Dungon kind of guy. I'm al;ways stuck in a more historic mindset & therefore can't run them well.

Quote:
I prefer my 'dungeons' to be on the shorter and sweeter end of the scale -thats is to say well planned and succinct in delivering the story of the game. I am very wary of dungeon fatigue setting in with players - another door another room etc.

That is how mine normally turn out
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:39 pm

Lurker wrote:
I tend not to be a big Dungon kind of guy. I'm al;ways stuck in a more historic mindset & therefore can't run them well.

Wow. I tend to be the totally opposite. I have been told that my dungeon adventures are fantastic. But I've always had a bit of a tough time coming up with things to do while not in a dungeon. I can do encounters well enough I think, but when it comes to good, historical-like, above ground adventures (city adventures, wilderness adventures, etc), I tend to have a more difficult time in coming up with ideas, plots, etc.

I love to play in a game of yours Lurker. Sounds fantastic.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:54 pm

Lurker wrote:
I agree with Omote!

I'd never be able to CK that type of game but as Ilove to read Poe & King I'd love to be a player!

JG your not moving to the Flordia pan handle in the next year or willing to hold this game off till I retire out of the AF in 5-7 & move back to NE Ok years are you?

I'm probably going to stay in MO. But I'd love to have more players for it. However I'm still actually mapping the initial areas and getting it set up. I have no idea how it will work in execution.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:09 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
I'm probably going to stay in MO. But I'd love to have more players for it. However I'm still actually mapping the initial areas and getting it set up. I have no idea how it will work in execution.

Still sounds good. Question JG: how far are you from KC, Mo.? I make a trip there at least once a year. Just wonderin'.

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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:40 pm

Approximatly 4-5 hours. I'm closer to the Arkansas border which is about 2.5 hours away.

As things progress I'll start a thread on it at RK or the backstory would make a good Keeper article.
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