Troll Lord Games

The last couple of posts in the illusionists thread triggered a thought.

What ought one to do if a Race is made into a class? How would primes be allocated?
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Peter Bradley

Largely up to interpretation I suspect however

Dwarf

Con and Hmmm could be Str or maybe Int due to ingenuity in metal working and such?

Is this the kind of thing youre looking for?

I am off for a bit so I'll check the tread later.

Oh. A bit further than that. Would the race-class in question have 2 primes? Three? Fixed or not fixed?

I'm just ruminating on the matter and figured, since it hasn't been addressed before, that I would share.
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Peter Bradley

We can start by assigning primes to the ability scores they have a bonus to, then we have to ponder how much variety a race as a class would be giving us, let us take an elf as an example.

If elves get Dex as a prime and we want one to cast spells (a tribute to the origins) we should give it at least one more prime, but then how different will two elven spellcasters be? Comes a third prime.

This would give all races at least one fixed prime, maybe two, humans would be all free. We could also rule that a given race cannot choose one ability score as a prime, using the penalty to the ability score as a guide, so elves cannot take con, dwarves cannot get charisma and so on.

This kinda gives humans advantages already, and unless the race already offers enough flexibility in what it can accomplish through "class" (actually race) abilities (ie, 2 primes to keep spellcasting and racial scores), then no reason to give more than one free prime for them.

But this is not a very good rule, mainly because we are converting the class fell to the races, instead of developing a fitting feel for the races as classes. Whenever those two conflict, I would go with the idea devised with the race in mind and not an adaptation of a previous mindset.
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It is my thought that each race would defintely be associated with one prime.

However, since race/class is almost a class unto itself, it for sure should have two primes. The question is which ones. You easily give one defined prime, and then a second one at the players choice. Or, to break the mold as classes are presented in the PHB, you could give each race/class two specific primes that could not be changed.

..........................................Omote

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This reminds me of the Old Dungeons and Dragons game where Elf was a fighter/magic user - able to cast spells, wear light armor and fight with swords n'stuff.

If that were the case then I would say that the Elf (if were by default a class/race combo) would have primes of Dex and Int.

For a Dwarf as a class/race combo - I would have Con and Str.

Halflings I woud have Dex and Wis (but would default have rougish abilities)

Half-Orc would have Str and Con but would be allowed one additional prime like a human.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Alternatively, you could assign a race/class two primes and then they would have the ability of have one of the "half-primes" that float around these boards from time to time.

However, I think I'm firmly on the side of have each race/class have two predetermined primes. The reason for this is a race/class is a clearly defined racial type, for each race. A race/class is not as flexible as the race with a class, and should be treated as such. Individule sub-races could be difined as having different primes then the "base" race as well.

........................................Omote

FPQ
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So why are primes based on classes and not races anyway?
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gideon_thorne wrote:
The last couple of posts in the illusionists thread triggered a thought.

What ought one to do if a Race is made into a class? How would primes be allocated?

IMHO it depends on what your "race" does.

The classic example is Basic Elves in 5 box D&D. They are fighter/wizards. Primes could be Strength (from ftr) and Intelligence (from wiz). A case could be made to replace the Strength Prime with Dexterity, because it is an Elf. That takes care of all the primes.

PBH page 8 says that humans have 3 primes and demi-humans only 2. As the above Elf has, in effect, 2 classes and a prime from each its prime slots are full.

If all races are going to become classes you could give each character an additional prime of the players choice. The PHB does not restrict the choice of primes. This gives humans 4 primes and the others 3 primes. This might make characters too powerful unless the monsters get the same treatment.
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Good question...

I figure that each demi-human race would have a Prime Requirement like classes have a requirement... It should probably still be 2 for demi-humans and 3 for humans.

*shrugs*

It would IMO be along the lines of the racial bonuses that races get for certain abilities. CON would be another good one for Dwarves..

Moriarty the Red
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Dragonhelm wrote:
So why are primes based on classes and not races anyway?

Well, imo, they're not. I think classes are based on primes.

To be a fighter, you need to know how to use your strength. To be a wizard, you need to know how to think. Etc etc...

-Fizz

For my Dragonlance adaptation, for some races of elves and humans I enforced that some primes be chosen, to represent the aptitudes of the races. For example, Kagonesti elves have at least a physical prime, due to their rugged lifestyles.

The same for humans of barbarian origin, who are not prone to intellectual developments.

I think it makes a characterization of a race quite strong, and is easy to do.

Cheers,

Antonio

I've been toying with this myself. I want the racial classes to exist side by side with the standard classes in my game. Furthermore, I am instituting racial level limits. I wanted the Racial classes to give access to a mix of abilities not normally allowed by my level limits and also to evoke a similar sense to OD&D demihuman classes where you had an unusual combination of abilities but a fairly restricted concept. I felt that by choosing a Racial class, the character would have to have Primes suited to the Race's essence.

Dwarf: Strength and Constitution

Elf: Dexterity and Charisma (more like Tolkien Elves)

Halfling: Dexterity and Constitution (they are hardy)

Gnome: Intelligence and Wisdom

Obviously, one could argue the above choices.

For "half" races, I felt that the human blood essentially gave them more flexibility at the cost of being able to have a defined racial class.

I did this already for my Doldrums. You just pick a Prime that best exemplifies the stereotype for that particular race based on your perception of the whole... minus the individuals. For example, one drow might be a good guy with two scimitars and a pet rock with claws... but the race is not, and is vastly different. Therefore, as a species, they get X, even that one dude, but individuals can be variable as there are atoms in the universe... its all about personality, abilities, experiences, perceptions, and... well, Primes.

I am making an assumption here, that by turning the races into self-contained classes, the current classes are available only to humans.

If that's the case, I would strip everyone down to two primes. Demi-humans pick both of their primes freely, while humans choose one prime freely and have the other dictated by their class. The usefulness of associating primes with class abilities will tend to normalize a demi-human race toward a given "standard selection," while still allowing the player to have some variation if s/he chooses. The innate diversity of humans is represented by the versatility of their class abilities as related to the various primes.

In other words, rather than choosing both primes, human characters get to choose whether to be a monk, fighter, illusionist, etc. and gets all the abilities associated with that class, as opposed to a standard set of racial abilities.

Half-Orcs Strength

Halflings Dexterity

Dwarves Constitution

Gnomes Intelligence

Half-Elves Wisdom

Elves Charisma
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Gnostic Gnoll wrote:
I am making an assumption here, that by turning the races into self-contained classes, the current classes are available only to humans.

If that's the case, I would strip everyone down to two primes. Demi-humans pick both of their primes freely, while humans choose one prime freely and have the other dictated by their class. The usefulness of associating primes with class abilities will tend to normalize a demi-human race toward a given "standard selection," while still allowing the player to have some variation if s/he chooses. The innate diversity of humans is represented by the versatility of their class abilities as related to the various primes.

In other words, rather than choosing both primes, human characters get to choose whether to be a monk, fighter, illusionist, etc. and gets all the abilities associated with that class, as opposed to a standard set of racial abilities.

Assuming this assumption is correct, I think this is a good approach. If "elves" (as a class) get dex-based skills and spellcasting, they will gravitate towards those Primes without the rules requiring it. This gives the PC's more choice in how they wish to focus their character. Are they an elf that focuses on the fighting aspect of the class, or the spellcasting?

I would be tempted to give the racial classes one or two class abilities that are triggered by each (or at least four) of the Stats, so that elves aren't all exactly the same. For instance, they all have Move Silently and Hide in natural settings, but the ones that choose to be DEX prime are better at it. The elf class would also be a good candidate for skills based on Wisdom and Charisma.

The last tweak would be to introduce a few rules into the magic mechanics to grant a bonus for Int/Wis-Prime spellcasters. Perhaps the CC to save vs. your spells is influenced by whether your Prime or not. Maybe only Prime characters get bonus spells. Make Dispel Magic an opposed Int check, for instance. It's a moot point under the RAW, since all spellcasters are Prime, but in the case where racial classes (particularly the Gnomes and Elves) might have spellcasting powers but not require a Prime in Int, you would want to grant a bonus to making that choice (just as if it were another class skill).

This way an Str/Dx elf would be a good fighter and a lousy spellcaster (compared to Int-Prime elves and human wizards), while an Int/Chr-Prime elf would be an excellent spellcaster, be better at whatever Chr-based skills you grant the elf class, and in trouble in a hand-to-hand fight.
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irda ranger wrote:
Assuming this assumption is correct, I think this is a good approach. If "elves" (as a class) get dex-based skills and spellcasting, they will gravitate towards those Primes without the rules requiring it. This gives the PC's more choice in how they wish to focus their character. Are they an elf that focuses on the fighting aspect of the class, or the spellcasting?

I would be tempted to give the racial classes one or two class abilities that are triggered by each (or at least four) of the Stats, so that elves aren't all exactly the same. For instance, they all have Move Silently and Hide in natural settings, but the ones that choose to be DEX prime are better at it. The elf class would also be a good candidate for skills based on Wisdom and Charisma.

The last tweak would be to introduce a few rules into the magic mechanics to grant a bonus for Int/Wis-Prime spellcasters. Perhaps the CC to save vs. your spells is influenced by whether your Prime or not. Maybe only Prime characters get bonus spells. Make Dispel Magic an opposed Int check, for instance. It's a moot point under the RAW, since all spellcasters are Prime, but in the case where racial classes (particularly the Gnomes and Elves) might have spellcasting powers but not require a Prime in Int, you would want to grant a bonus to making that choice (just as if it were another class skill).

This way an Str/Dx elf would be a good fighter and a lousy spellcaster (compared to Int-Prime elves and human wizards), while an Int/Chr-Prime elf would be an excellent spellcaster, be better at whatever Chr-based skills you grant the elf class, and in trouble in a hand-to-hand fight.

I really like this. It makes the races much more flexable.
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