Troll Lord Games

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Author:  Captain_K [ Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Encumbrance

soft boots no encumbrance and heavy boots one.. OK seems logical.. normal shoes also a 1... seems odd.. wait leggings a value of 3.. now it makes no sense...

One normal set of cloths and shoes/soft boots seems like the defacto start of "no encumbrance"...

How do you all handle magic items.. Is magic armor say +2, two points less encumbering? how about the +3 bastard sword?


Author:  Traveller [ Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

The values for the soft boots, heavy boots and shoes are all resonable. The soft boots are like moccasins in that they don't have a hard sole, which is why the soft boots have an EV of 0 versus the EV 1 of the heavy boots and shoes. The leggings are rather large, and while you can roll them up, their general size is equal to the shoes. Thus the EV 1 is reasonable there as well.

Magic items are up to the CK's discretion here. If I recall correctly, the Trolls reduce EV by half for a magic item. That's a nice and quick way to do it, but it's not something I would do. I personally wouldn't reduce EV values for magic items at all. Just because it's magical doesn't mean it's not bulky to carry or wear. Some people tinker with the weight of magic items, but seem to forget that these items still have length, width, and height. Those three plus weight are combined to generate the final EV value of an object. So if weight is reduced for a magic item, EV will be reduced, but likely not by much.

Author:  Captain_K [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

thanks for the input... but if I had plate mail +1 and I could ask the wizard to make it half the weight and half the bulk... or make it resist dragon fire... I would go with the weight.. so I tend to assume "magic item means lighter, faster, stronger..." at least in arms and armor.. but that said... a magical long spear is still 10+ feet long!

thanks again, Captain K

Author:  Traveller [ Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

If you want to play under that assumption you are more than welcome to do so. After all it's your game and your rules. With so many different approaches possible on the topic of magic item encumbrance it's easier simply to not get involved and leave it to you guys to decide. And, just for physics reasons, don't declare an item to be weightless unless you want that item to rocket into space. Say "nearly weightless" instead.

Author:  Captain_K [ Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

Well if it was only weight less it would float into space... now if it was made of anti-matter... it might rocket away or anti-gavitational... like a permanent "reverse gravity" on a spell... what a great cursed item that would make.. on a roll of 13 to hit with this sword there is a 10' diameter "reverse gravity" spell discharge, but on a natural 19 or 20 damage is tripled... call it the "really not so lucky blade" ???

Author:  mmbutter [ Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

If it was made of anti-matter, it would spontaneously explode in a nuclear reaction as it contacted normal matter...

Author:  Traveller [ Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

Captain_K wrote:
Well if it was only weight less it would float into space....

A weightless object would rocket into space due to planetary motion. For example, if a golf ball on Earth were to become weightless that golf ball would appear to rocket away from Earth. Since the Earth is affected by gravity, i.e. it revolves around the sun, and the golf ball isn't, the Earth's motion is what causes the golf ball to appear to move. Tie the golf ball to something attached to the Earth such as a tree branch and the golf ball will float in air but will not rocket away due to the having a physical connection with the moving object, i.e. the Earth. If the golf ball were let loose underground the planet's motion would drive the golf ball into the roof. It would either escape completely or, more likely, disintegrate on impact, leaving a crater.

Author:  jdizzy001 [ Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

I do 1 of 2 things. RAW or limit encumberance to the PCs STR score then tell the players they can only carry a number of items equal to their STR score. Keep it simple. Resource management shouldn't slow down a game. If you want that, go play settlers of catan.

Author:  Captain_K [ Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

You are breaking Newton's First law with your "rocket off into space"... I like this kind of this argument (discussion), but don't want to offend, my goal is to be polite and correct where I see errors (mind you I could be wrong too).

If I create an object on earth, it is moving with Earth (same initial conditions). If I suddenly magically make it "weigh nothing" to the appearance of an earth bound mage it is either neutral to the mass of air it now displaces in which case it floats about in perfect balance with the air around it which is based on the assumption that our "feeling of weightless" is relative to "mass-less air" (mages likely do not think of air has having "weight" and "mass"). That to me is applying all sorts of logic to magic item creation and the desire of the creator to make a set of say armor "weightless to the wearer". Pretty stupid spell if you make the item and it flies away.. scary if you invoked the magic while someone is wearing the armor (unless you never want to see them again). If we remove even that slight bit of air's mass then it will float faster than say a Helium balloon (near weightless), which can be pretty quick to rise straight up, but I would not call that rocket away. Again.. planetary motions include everything on them.. they will continue to move with the planet (as the planets make no abrupt changes) assuming the creation of the item is on the earth's surface.

Its all about "initial conditions of motion",.. objects in motion tend to stay in motion until acted upon by a new force. I am assuming all objects on earth have the same initial conditions. Your assumptions above I think assume that the magic item has some off planet starting frame reference to which it will move or that when the force of gravity is changed to zero it is in effect a negative force pulling the item away.. that would be "negative weight", "negative mass", anti-matter, or anti-gravity or in magic terms "reverse gravity".

Thought experiment: Start with a normal weight object.. keep reducing its weight.. it does not start to lift off the table until it weighs less than air, it doesn't even slide around. So no rocket away due to low weight or even zero weight.. zero weight simply moves because of its buoyancy in air. Otherwise balloons would not rise up they would rise up AND opposite the direction of the sun.

NOW we are talking about weightless NOT mass-less... mass-less is a non-thing so you cannot make a thing with matter (and worry about its weight enough to magically reduce its weight) and have it be mass-less unless its a magical field or some such without mass and no weight either. But I assume we are talking about items of mass who's "weight" we are trying to magically reduce to "less" but not so little that they float away. That's another example, a magical force field.. no mass, no weight.. yet it stays were you place it... but that could just be magic... light is another example, I beam it between two objects it does not bend off the planet because gravity does not act on it...

In short, no action of forces means no change in motion. Start here, stay here, until some forces acts upon you... floating is buoyancy not negative gravity.

Also, MMButter... "If it was made of anti-matter, it would spontaneously explode in a nuclear reaction as it contacted normal matter."... it would be worse, it would be an anti-matter - matter interaction, way more power than puny nuclear forces!

Author:  Captain_K [ Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

I still like making the PCs sketch their character with all items drawn.. then the group agrees to who's encumbered... easy and fun plus makes everyone aware.. but for those who like to book keep.. I think the latest PH has the base capability be your STR score. Then you can add a few for STR or CON prime... OK.. but to stay unencumbered even with STR & CON primes and an 18 STR you cannot be carrying very much at all past heavy armor and weapons... OK for fighters.. but kills the Cleric in armor without those primes or high STR...

We are currently trying a minor change: If you have STR, DEX, or CON a prime take a +2 to your STR score (not for each), but each BONUS to STR, DEX, or CON add all those bonuses... less weight on the prime, more on the score. Then we created a "light encumbrance" category which is only -5 to move, -1 to DEX, etc. at 1x to 2x your allowance. Then per the PH for 2x to 3x allowance with the noted penalty.

This seems to allow most folks to bring reasonable amounts of stuff to allow the characters to "have gear" and function with a minor penalty that most can live with without only being in gym shorts, a t-shirt, one hammer, a holy symbol, one mace, and no other items... because I'm a cleric with low str and primes in WIS and CHA.

Author:  Traveller [ Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

Captain_K wrote:
You are breaking Newton's First law with your "rocket off into space"... I like this kind of this argument (discussion), but don't want to offend, my goal is to be polite and correct where I see errors (mind you I could be wrong too).

I don't believe I am in error here, especially as I did some brief research before making the post. In any case, in a universe where magic is real, the physical laws of the universe can be suspended or altered. That includes Newton's laws.

The golf ball is not attracted to other objects due to not being subject to gravity. The planet however still is subject to gravity, and thus it moves on its course while the ball hangs there in space. To the observer the ball appears to rocket away from them when in fact the ball does not move.

Author:  mmbutter [ Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

It depends on whether we're talking "weightless" but still with mass (then gravity will continue to work on the object, keeping it "stuck" to the Earth) or "weightless" with no mass (then gravity will no longer work on the object, and it will continue in a straight line, while everything else curves away as the Earth rotates).

Author:  Traveller [ Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

Well, a weightless item, by the book, still has an encumbrance value because it has length, width, and height. Since it still has its shape, it must have mass. A weightless item may still have mass, but if the object is not affected by gravity at all due to magic, its mass is irrelevant. The pull of gravity on an object is what determines its weight, and a weightless object would therefore ignore the pull of gravity. If a weightless object didn't ignore the pull of gravity, it couldn't be weightless.

A magic item without any weight is not subject to Newton's laws and will appear to fly away at 66,000mph, due to the planet still being subject to the very laws that the item is not. Thus you want to declare that your magic items are "nearly weightless".

Author:  anvil242 [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

Does this theoretical item still have inertia?

Author:  Traveller [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

The theoretical object doesn't have any inertia. A magic weapon could however have inertia from being swung, if that helps.

Author:  Captain_K [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

This is getting fun.. the item in question has an initial velocity.. along with the table, the mage, the floor, all the air around the item, everything in that inertial frame is moving together... then bam, then magic makes it "weightless". If we assume that it still has three dimensions, it can still be touched, it has strength. Inertia has two types 1) area inertia which is strictly speaking purely a dimensional (fourth order actually) and assumes some level of material strength (the ability to carry a load or force).. it is in short the ability to resist being bent.. units of in^4 or m^4. Then there is mass moment of inertia which is the mass*distance^2. It requires mass, but not weight. Thus our object has both mass and both types of inertia no matter which type we are talking about.

Weight only exists when acceleration (typically gravity, but any acceleration works) acts on mass in a net direction. Astronauts float on the space station not because they are weightless, but because other motions allow them to move circularly and be in constant free fall. ( ... s-in-Orbit ). So the magic is basically reducing gravity on unchanging mass or the mass is decreased likely akin to a density reduction. Think switching from a steel sword to a titanium sword.. we keep our steel sword and magic makes its "lighter" to the hand, but keeps or improves its strength and ability to do its job...

Now back to our set up, So this item is moving with initial values of velocity and accelerations of all masses around the earth and sun and until some force acts on this changed item it continues to "sit on the table"... the force of gravity from the center of the earth lets say utterly stops pulling it down to the table when magic makes it weightless... gravity or lack of gravity's pull does not make it float up or repel from earth's mass and the pull of the sun doesn't work either.. no object of mass will "pull at it", its now free of gravitational forces only (or so we have agreed for this discussion).. so the ONLY forces working to change the initial velocity and motions of the object is buoyancy and local frictions and resistances... it will want to "float" in the air IF it has less mass ("weight") per volume than the air, but it will not fall through the table or move sideways as nothing is trying to make it move in those directions. It will move with the world around it until it is free of all that "massive" air around it.. keep in mind, this weightless object now makes the air around it look like a body in water. It will float up and pretty darn fast. Float a raisin in a cup of water and move the cup around.. the raisin moves with the water.. it does not fly out of the water in any odd direction other than up, it will float to the surface or sink to the bottom only due to buoyancy.

OR the magic makes it hit +1, +1 to damage AND -1 to its EV value... its just another thing that need not be explained.

Author:  mmbutter [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

It is not moving in a straight line, but rather gravity is forcing it into a curved motion. If gravity ceases to work on the object, then it will continue in a straight line (a tangent to the surface of the Earth). From the viewpoint of an observer that gravity is still working on, it will appear to rise.

Author:  Captain_K [ Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

This is totally true if there were no other forces.. there are many other forces because gravity is making everything else around it continue to move and obey all the law that allow us to sit in a room, feel nothing, and be hurtling through space, spinning on earth, around the sun, and then around the galaxy.. the arbitrary idea that when one force gravity ignores us we only think about the earth spinning, or orbiting... you would also have to have universe expansion, etc. So long as the magic item remains on earth "in a room with air" all that mass and materials in its inertial frame of reference will keep it moving along.. again besides floating... but again no mage would create any low weight item that floats away.. unless he wants a magic balloon ride.

Author:  Traveller [ Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

Without gravity the universe as we know it would not exist. Without gravity the dust cloud from which the solar system was created would not condense and form the Sun and its planets. Galaxies would not exist. Black holes would not exist. The only things that would exist are individual atoms of primordial hydrogen and anti-hydrogen. In fact, it's entirely conceivable that without gravity the Big Bang would not have occurred.

Gravity is that important to life that its absence cannot be ignored. Astronomers at Cornell have answered a similar question that a third grade class asked them: If the Earth no longer had gravity, would buildings and other structures attached to the Earth float away? To summarize what the Cornell astronomers said, what happens to objects when gravity is shut off depends on whether they are attached to the Earth or not. Most objects other than trees or buildings would begin floating away from Earth as it moved about its course around the Sun. The atmosphere would float away, and eventually the Earth itself would break apart. Yes folks, gravity is indeed that important.

Fortunately, we're not asking about the Earth itself, but a single, hypothetical golf ball. In the case of our hypothetical golf ball, unless tied to a tree or a building with a sturdy foundation, it's going to fly off into space. Now, I said the hypothetical golf ball would rocket off into space, and in that I was wrong.* The golf ball would begin gently floating away, only to have its acceleration appear to increase as the Earth continued moving on its course. The same effect would occur with a magic item that has been rendered weightless.

*I quite liked the idea of the golf ball making an impact crater. Guess I can't have everything. ;)

Author:  Captain_K [ Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

I fully agree with your summary.. the "weight less" object will leave the earth rather fast.. that floating action is buoyancy and if you put an altra-low weight hydrogen balloon (thin Mylar) in sea level "air" and let go it does "float" VERY fast.. let's call it a "slow rocket" off the planet.

Great discussion, lots of fun.. but in the end... no mage would make something weight less, they would make it so light as to be undershirt weight for chain mail or willow wand weight for a long sword... to make them all that much better a magic item.

I still like cursed armor with a random chance when hit to inflict "reverse gravity" on the wearer.

Author:  Traveller [ Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Encumbrance

Exactly my point. You don't want to declare a magic item as "weightless" but "nearly weightless".

Now that cursed armor sounds like a fun trip. :D

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