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Whats changed?
https://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17269
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Author:  GameOgre [ Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Whats changed?

I have been gone for a while and am just now getting back into C&C again.

The last book I bought was the (at the time) brand new Castle Keepers Guide. I actually bought the small version or miniaturized version and loved it.

I just decided last night after running 5E for the last time, that I was heading back to C&C and took a spin and saw all the new lovely new book printings.

Has the game changed much? I do plan on eventually buying all those new awesome art versions of my old books but I need to priorities.

I think I have the 3rd or 4th printings of all the basic books other than the above mentioned CKG.

Are there any actual rules changes? If so what book should I get first?

Author:  Omote [ Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

For the main books, there is little to no changes other than cosmetic for the current PHB, M&T, and CKG. I couldn't speak for any other book in the C&C line.

M&T is getting a redo pretty soon (2019?) where TLG is going to combine the M&T, Classic Monsters, as well as monsters that have appeared in individual adventure modules into one full-color product. The Monsters and Treasures of Aihrde book will remain a separate product. It looks like according to TLG's last Kickstarter the new M&T will be a big ole' hardbound book, as well as a binder with loose-leaf pages for each monster. Though TLG has admitted they are having a spot of trouble making the binder small and usable enough to encompass all of the monsters from the various sources. Work continues.

The CKG has not been updated, with the exception of the cover art.

Of course, minor corrections and errata have been updated for most of the recent printings of these books.

I think starting with the 3rd or 4th printing of the PHB, there was an additional appendix added regarding multiple-classed characters in various forms first appeared (multi-class, class-and-a-half). A very nice section if you don't already have it. Of course, the most recent printing of the PHB still contains this appendix.

The most recent PHB with the alternative cover (4 heroes on the cover with the red/firedragon) is just too damn cool for school and rocks so hard.

~O

Author:  GameOgre [ Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

Thanks man! Just what I needed to know.

Author:  Aergraith [ Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

The second printing CKG has 342 pages, and the first printing has 289. Certainly there is something new.

Author:  Traveller [ Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

The page increase is due to changing the font size from 9 to 12. Lots of grammar and mechanics fixes for the optional rules in the book, but I don't recall adding anything new.

EDIT: To clarify, I was talking about the Castle Keepers Guide above.

Author:  Captain_K [ Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

Welcome back! Plenty to catch up on.. fun stuff by your peers to read in the Domesday Books. Lots of plans and some coming to be.. I think the TLG store should summarize what's reprinted and whats new too.

Author:  Mediapig71 [ Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

Between 4th and 7th printing, Barbarian Intimidation ability changed a bit...

4th Printing: Target(s) must make a CHR save or be intimidated.

7th Printing: Barbarian must make a CON check to intimidate the target(s).

Author:  serleran [ Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

Much prefer the original version. It stays inline with standard abilities like "target must save vs. fireball" and not 'wizard must save to cast it.'

But, that's fine... definitely alters the game play.

Author:  Traveller [ Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

If we're talking about the basic books and not just the CKG, the biggest change made in Monsters & Treasure is correcting the XP values of every single monster in the book. The second biggest change was to fix the armor and shields tables so they actually worked. Most monster and magic descriptions received a polish. Spell resistance got tweaked. SR for all creatures is at least 1, and magic items which provide spell resistance now do so in the form of a modifier to the spell resistance rating. The biggest change in the PHB was the revamp to the Barbarian, which I believe GameOgre knows about already, followed by the simplification of the encumbrance rules.

There's lots of little things that got fixed such as the page count of spell books and the maze spell, but what I listed above were the big changes.

Author:  Mediapig71 [ Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

serleran wrote:
Much prefer the original version. It stays inline with standard abilities like "target must save vs. fireball" and not 'wizard must save to cast it.'

But, that's fine... definitely alters the game play.


Does anyone know why they changed it?

Author:  mmbutter [ Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

Mediapig71 wrote:
Does anyone know why they changed it?


They didn't; the target must still save.

Author:  Mediapig71 [ Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

Obviously its your game, your rules, but according to the 7th printing, the intimidation takes effect when the barbarian makes a successful CON check. No save for the target is mentioned, and it specifically states says the ability takes effect as soon as the barbarian uses it.

That being said, I think I kind of prefer the older "target makes CHR save" version myself.

Author:  Peter [ Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

You guys forgot to mention the healing Illusionist. See, the Illusionist sucks as a class as it is really just a Wizard that cast Illusion spells. Much like an Enchanter, Conjurer, Pyromancer, etc. The earlier versions try to make it unique by making it so Wizards can't cast a lot of the Illusion spells and by adding some abilities like disguise, which makes it "unique". It still sucked, but it is one of the Troll's favorite classes, so he said hey lets make the Illusionist heal too. How you may ask? Well the official explanation is the recipient truly believes they are healed, so it works.

Author:  mmbutter [ Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

The "official explanation" is that illusionists alter reality. They change reality to one where the wounds are healed.

Quote:
An illusionist uses magic to alter the perceptions of others and even reality itself. This magic deceives the senses, creates false images and sounds, changes sensory qualities, affects the mind’s perceptions, and in some cases fashion arcane energies into something real.


(Emphasis mine.)

Author:  Peter [ Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

The cure/heal spells say otherwise. They make an Intelligence check. If they fail it, they realize the magic is fake and don't heal.

Author:  mmbutter [ Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

If the Int check succeeds the recipient of the spell rejects the alteration of reality (same is true of all Illusionist spells - making the save rejects the alteration of reality). Also, the healing spells are marked as (h) which means the recipient can refuse to make the save and have the spell act normally.

Quote:
A parenthetical (h) indicates a harmless spell, one that is usually beneficial but still allows a targeted creature to attempt a saving throw if it wishes.

Author:  Peter [ Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

If the Illusionist is actually altering reality, someone being smart wouldn't stop that. The mind of matter crud in the explanation fits more with the Psionicist archetype. The real Illusionist archetype would be an offshoot of the Rogue.

Author:  Mediapig71 [ Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

Oh that's interesting... I never realized that. Maybe a troll could chime in here? Can recipients of Illusionist healing spells choose not to make a saving throw (in which case, it makes them much more powerful.)

Author:  mmbutter [ Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

Well, I quoted the PHB, where it says those throws are made "if [the recipient] wishes".

Author:  Peter [ Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

There is no (h) on the save, it is on the spell resistance. It specifically says that a saving throw must be made.

Author:  Rhuvein [ Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

Very excellent points, re: illusionist class by y'all. For me, you add to and support my thoughts on why The Trolls destroyed this class with their changes.

I always like to go the example, as mentioned above - illusionist faux "heals" and the subject "believes" it.

Larry, "thanks man, I feel great!" Leon, "you're welcome, dude!"

Joe, "glad to hear it Larry, but one thing. Blood is pouring out of that sword wound and you'll be dead shortly! Earl! - calls for the cleric, "you better help Larry or he is gonna be one dead muthahubbard. And by way, everyone, forgettabout Leon's "healing", ya know!

:P

Author:  mmbutter [ Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

Peter wrote:
There is no (h) on the save, it is on the spell resistance. It specifically says that a saving throw must be made.


7th Printing, Page 75:

Quote:
VOLUNTARILY GIVING UP A SAVING THROW: a creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this if he or she wants to.


No one is ever *required* to attempt a saving throw.

Author:  Peter [ Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats changed?

7th Printing, Page 99, Cure Light Wounds:

Quote:
The illusionist version of the spell acts in the same manner with one important exception. The spell recipient of the spell must make an intelligence saving throw.


If the author's were to put every exception to a rule into that rules section, the book would be a mess. I've seen it done tho :P

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