A couple of rules questions

[novevite]

Hi, I'm a new user here among the trolls and, as an introduction, I've decided to ask a couple of stupid/nitpicky questions, to let you know who you're dealing with

There are a couple of rules me and my group don't understand, as written:

first one is the Class and a half experience total... What's the experience total of a 6th level Fighter-half Wizard? Is it 36601 (34001 for full 6th lvl Fighter + 5201/2 for half of a 3rd lvl Wizard) or 55251 (34001 + 42501/2 for half of a 6th lvl Wizard)? Are both methods wrong?

Second one is about Multiclass armored spellcasting: is a full multiclass Fighter-Wizard meant to cast spells in armor? Is the system meant to emulate 1st Edition AD&D in this instance (the crazy race related restrictions)? Or 2nd (the "elven chain or bust" method)? Does it go in another direction altogether?
I understand my group can houserule everything to its liking, but I'm actually interested in how the thing was meant to work, from a Designer's point of view.

The third one is about the spell Shillelagh: according to the description, it "allows" the enchanted club to deal 1d6+1 damage, which should actually be the normal weapon damage, according to the equipment table... so... is there a typo somewhere?

Aaaaand that's it for today!

[Lurker]

Let me be the first to welcome you to the fun house here.

There are a great group of smart people here, and they do have a vast knowledge of the rules.

That said, I'll leave the answering of the questions to my betters . If I tried to answer your first 2 questions I'd muck it up.

For your 3rd question ... welcome to TLG. It very easily could be a type o and it should be an additional +1 to the damage as by the book so 1d6 +2; or it could be only a +1 magic to hit but leaves the damage at d6+1. Now an unwritten bonus of the spell effect is that the +1 allows you to hit things that require a magic weapon to hit. So, poof, with the spell now you have a magic weapon for free. Not a great bonus at higher levels, but at low levels it can be a life saver.

Now ... go with what you think works best for you and your game/group.

The rules are very bendable and you can house rule or correct the type os on the fly and not worry about breaking the rules.

[novevite]

Yeah, I know we can modify everything to our liking: another interpretation, the one I will probably use, is that the normal club damage is wrong, 1d6+1 is a lot... I actually prefer the old school 1d6 damage, considering it's also a really good throwing weapon.
EDIT: if I'll manage to convince our Keeper to let me extensively modify the weapons list, I'll probably go with base damage 1d4, "Shillelagh" damage 1d6+1... the poor old Handaxe needs some love. :'(

That said, there might be an error there and, if so, we might be able to "achieve" one less error in the 8th printing of the game.

(sorry for my bad english, really out of practice non-native speaker)

[Treebore]

Another thing to consider, the spell enchants the weapon, so it is now magical, and can effect magic only creatures.

[Treebore]

As for question 2, yes, it is meant to enable wizards to wear armor, but at great penalty. -9 if they go for Polish Hussar armor.

As for question 1, I threw their method out and do my own.

[Traveller]

The third one is about the spell Shillelagh: according to the description, it "allows" the enchanted club to deal 1d6+1 damage, which should actually be the normal weapon damage, according to the equipment table... so... is there a typo somewhere?

The typo is in the equipment table; club damage should be 1d6. Shillelagh then provides its +1 bonus.

[Buttmonkey]

There are a couple of rules me and my group don't understand, as written:

first one is the Class and a half experience total... What's the experience total of a 6th level Fighter-half Wizard? Is it 36601 (34001 for full 6th lvl Fighter + 5201/2 for half of a 3rd lvl Wizard) or 55251 (34001 + 42501/2 for half of a 6th lvl Wizard)? Are both methods wrong?

The second method you suggest is the correct one. The PHB (6th printing, anyway), provides:

Experience points needed for level advancement are determined by adding the XP of the principal class to one half the XP of the supporting class.

XP for a 6th level fighter is 34,001. XP for a 6th level wizard is 42,501. 1/2 of the XP for a 6th level wizard is 21,250.5. XP for your 6th level fighter with 1/2 wizard is 55,251.5.

Second one is about Multiclass armored spellcasting: is a full multiclass Fighter-Wizard meant to cast spells in armor? Is the system meant to emulate 1st Edition AD&D in this instance (the crazy race related restrictions)? Or 2nd (the "elven chain or bust" method)? Does it go in another direction altogether?

For full multiclassed fighter-wizards, the PC can wear any armor, but they cannot case spells (I'm disagreeing with Treebore on this one).

Multi-class characters can use any armor from any of the combined classes’ armor allowed list at [sic] however, they still suffer any penalties mentioned for a class ability such as with the rogue’s pick pocket.

Any class can wear any armor. If they do, their abilities may be affected. For example, if a wizard wears any armor they can not cast spells.

I think Treebore is confusing the rules for full multi-classing with class and a half. Class and a half does allow spell casting in armor with a bonus to the target's saving throw based on the AC bonus of the armor if wizard or illusionist is the primary class. Spell casting is not allowed when wizard/illusionist is the supporting class.

Wizard or illusionist supported by an armor proficient class may cast spells while armored, however, any spells which allow a save are granted a bonus to the save equal to the base AC bonus of the spell-caster’s armor. This principal also applies to druids who wear metal armor.

An armor proficient class supported by a wizard or illusionist class cannot cast spells while armored, allow a save or cause damage. This principal applies to druids wearing metal armor.

[Omote]

The third one is about the spell Shillelagh: according to the description, it "allows" the enchanted club to deal 1d6+1 damage, which should actually be the normal weapon damage, according to the equipment table... so... is there a typo somewhere?

The typo is in the equipment table; club damage should be 1d6. Shillelagh then provides its +1 bonus.

Are you sure? I think Steven really likes his club weapons. That +1 has been on the editor's and proofreading checklist to Steven since 2007.

~O

[Kayolan]

Wait, clubs only do d6 damage?! That's one hell of a typo!

[alcyone]

Take away the +1 on the standard club over my dead body! Best weapon for the price!

[Omote]

Take away the +1 on the standard club over my dead body! Best weapon for the price!

Now, make it expert crafted of greater expert crafted... Oh, the humanity!

~O

[Captain_K]

Novevite, Great to have you join us AND great to have you digging in with real PCs and great questions.

Rules should make sense... F+W/2... so 4th and 2nd.... should be experience of 4th and 2nd... or per the PH 4th fighter and 4th wizard/2... theoretically the same.. but the numbers tweak about again.. again... logic and math should be "reasonable"... that is your guide.

Things have been left kind of general assuming you are willing to think and make assumptions and "house rules" for all the little details... you will not find all the rules all detailed by someone other than YOU. YOU are in the driver seat.. but let us help you... we're a HUGE back seat full of drivers...

Your second question should be answered by the "designers"... but my personal thought is Illusionist strictly says no armor aka armor and no spells but the wizard only says it hinders the semantic components.. and it makes sense that holding a focus and speaking words is not hindered by even plate mail... OK that's rule picking.. the back says go by what the class says... but any armor is OK so long as the class does not prohibit.... we all know wizards "in DnD" do NOT wear armor... go with that OR allow them to wear it with some penalties... the class and a half is a nice starting place for your house rules as are letting ANYONE use special "mage" armor... such as magic item armor such as bracers, cloaks, etc or the dwarven or mage made chain mails.... take your pick.. but multi and class and a half all have weaknesses and strengths.. use or don't.

The "stick" be it a club, a branch, a chair leg, baton, nightstick, or any cudgel now becomes a +1 magic item able to hit nasty stuff.. what more do you want AND it always does d6+1 damage... who cares if a normal club does that damage... it does not against anything needing +1 magic items without this spell... suck it up butter cup!

Now, if someone wants to check back printings to see if there is a change through time. ... you are seeing it as it is...

Magic stones are the same....

[novevite]

Yeah, I also miss the one handed Goedentag, with 1d6+3... man was it overpowered

I was asking that question about the club because it seems to me that the spell was meant, and worded, to be a "now you've got a +1 club" spell, which contradicts the weapon damage table, so, you know... maybe typo?
EDIT: yeah, magic stones is nice and easy.

[novevite]

[quote="Captain_K"][/quote]
I'll assume you guys have been scarred by new school players unable to grasp the concept of house-ruling.

That said... I understand I can bend everything to my liking: I started playing in the ol times of yore, when BECMIs roamed. At the time, games were poorly worded and contradicted themselves so many times you actually HAD to house-rule just to keep things going.

In my experience, poorly worded and ambiguous rules do not "help" me be my own man, they only help to incite strife. You can keep the manuals to yourself, you can punish players for "power-playing" (which is using the rules to heighten their characters' chances of survival) or for "rule-lawyering" (which is thinking the rules work different), but in the end it's just a pain. Which magically stops when the manual is clear and easy.

Nowadays we only have 5 or 6 hours of play-time per month (because kids and work, the usual stuff)... we want to use those hours to play the game, not to fix it or argue, so sue me for asking for some clarifications
As our current keeper told me succintily when we decided to switch from AD&D 1e to C&C: "I want to house-rule to add things to the game, not to fix it because doesn't work" (and man, C&C DID fix a lot of stuff)

Some are still ambiguous, so why not ask? It's also pretty clear you guys have differing interpretations of the listed rules... a clarification might not be the worst thing ever.


EDIT: I'll add my personal "rulings" about the listed questions, to pile up on the confusion:

1) experience is calculated using the CHARACTER level, not the half-class level (55000 and something, not 36000 and something, which is practically a half-class giveaway)
2) the game is based (I think) on 1st edition AD&D, so full Gygax we go... full armored spellcasting for multiclass elves and half-elves, because they are magic and Birthright spellsong and such, while everybody else gets the stick, unless they manage to find elven mail, which is magical t-shirt.
3) the club gets bashed down to 1d4 base damage, because it can't be better than actual weapons, but is still 1d6+1 with Shillelagh, "magic stones" style.

[Captain_K]

1) Not sure I see the issue here, but I did not check the math
2) elves will sell their shirts at all sorts of magic fares
3) don't diss the club.. think baseball bat with spikes... its not a night stick.

[novevite]

1) Not sure I see the issue here, but I did not check the math
2) elves will sell their shirts at all sorts of magic fares
3) don't diss the club.. think baseball bat with spikes... its not a night stick.

2) yeah, that solution only works in our Birthright campaign: our Elves are fundamentally unseelie fae, with human hunting parties and similar niceties, they also steal babies and people in general

3) I'm more of a "let's balance things up" guy, so 1d6+1 (which is on par with a longsword) is too much for a free weapon... 1d4 makes handaxes, scimitars and rapiers a little bit better (I actually think they should be changed too, but that's another story)

[Lurker]

Yeah, I also miss the one handed Goedentag, with 1d6+3... man was it overpowered

I was asking that question about the club because it seems to me that the spell was meant, and worded, to be a "now you've got a +1 club" spell, which contradicts the weapon damage table, so, you know... maybe typo?
EDIT: yeah, magic stones is nice and easy.

Goedentag is not over powered, it is simply a cool weapon that is my favorite non-noble/non-knightly melee weapon !

Take away the +1 on the standard club over my dead body! Best weapon for the price!

Now, make it expert crafted of greater expert crafted... Oh, the humanity!

~O

Rgr that, that is the spirit !

Seriously though, to a point back in the day (and now if my older girl gets interested in gaming again & I can run C&C) I usually had lower level players 2 -4ish getting expert and master work weapons instead of magical. Though I did (do) run lower than normal magic settings by default. With that spells like Shillelagh were so useful at least at those lower levels.

[Omote]

Another rule we added for clubs was that any roll of a natural 1 or roll somehow reduced to 1 or lower results in a broken club. In addition, since we use critical hits in our games clubs don't ever get critical hits.

~○

[Captain_K]

Few make a magical club or masterwork club or such.. but to bash in someone's brains or break their arm they're fine.. so let the poor, the giant, the highway robbed get a weapon that does some damage.. does d4 vs d6 vs d8 ever decide a game? I think not.. so I tend to not care too much... let some things be cheap and move on... love to take everything away from a bunch of 5th to 10th lvl PC... leave them with spells in memory (no components or holy symbols) and loin cloths... chained to the walls.... after a night of too much drinking... escape and arm as you go.. clever to grab the torches for light and clubs... make a holy symbol from wood after they find a real weapon... a kitchen knife.... and make the wizard scrap for components as you try to make your way to freedom.. 2nd and 3rd level dungeon guards are a challenge again when you have clubs and no armor!

[alcyone]

[Captain_K]

What was his name again?

[Omote]

Few make a magical club or masterwork club or such..

I used this same argument during a campaign once and was assaulted with a bevy of pictures and historical accounts that clubs are probably the most widely used hand weapon in the history of mankind, and that cultures would certainly have made better and best club types. They even argued that the craftsmanship to create expertcraft and greater expertcraft clubs wouldn't be as expensive as other steel hand weapons of the time. Therefore we had to come up with rules. The base cost of a club was always 0gp for a straight up 1d6 club weapon. War clubs that do 1d6+1 damage always cost about 1gp each, and finer versions (with no mechanical benefit would cost between 1-6gp. Expertcraft and greater expertcraft clubs would always have a base weapon cost of 1-6gp from which to determine the final modified (x10, or x25) cost for such a weapon.

~O

[alcyone]

What was his name again?

Captain CAVEMAAAAAN!

Kaveman?

[Captain_K]

I like the detail to club. Some of those are stone aged maces. I like the idea of a simple free club being d6, 1 gp craftmanship for d6+1 then to get expert stuff requires special woods and skill so the cost is 2-6 gp to then get to 10x or 25x for expert (masterwork) clubs.

[Traveller]

The third one is about the spell Shillelagh: according to the description, it "allows" the enchanted club to deal 1d6+1 damage, which should actually be the normal weapon damage, according to the equipment table... so... is there a typo somewhere?

The typo is in the equipment table; club damage should be 1d6. Shillelagh then provides its +1 bonus.

Are you sure? I think Steven really likes his club weapons. That +1 has been on the editor's and proofreading checklist to Steven since 2007.

~O

I know you're only half joking here, but verified against the d20 SRD. And why was it when the fifth printing was in the works I didn't get the checklist? I know I missed stuff that was likely on it.