Criticals & Fumbles

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Persimmon
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Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Persimmon »

Ever since playing MERP in the 80s and 90s, I've loved using criticals and fumbles for a little added excitement. But I've found that systems vary pretty widely and what looks cool on paper, doesn't always work at the table. MERP, for example, had tons of robust tables. But you spent a lot of time looking things up and then there were convoluted ways of calculating experience tied to them. I first started using crits and fumbles in my D&D games with inspiration from Hackmaster 4e (which was really 1e), but again, their tables were a bit too fiddly. I did port over their ideas of a 20 HP "kicker" for all characters at 1st level and penetration (or exploding dice) damage, which we also applied to healing spells to even it out. So if you rolled an 8 on your Cure light Wounds, you kept rolling and adding until you didn't roll an 8.

So I eventually came up with this easy crit system. Natural 20 is a crit.
Roll another d20: 1-15=x2 damage
16-17=x3 damage
18-19=x4 damage
20=x5 damage
All bonuses are added before you multiply. For damage causing spells, rolling a 1 on the save means you took a crit.
Later picked up a d20 hit location die, so we use that to let people describe their crit.
Natural 1 is a fumble; you lose any more attacks that round and automatically lose initiative the next round.

I've also messed around with the Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea system, which is basically d6 rolls after the Nat 20 with either additions or multipliers according to class.

Dungeon Crawl Classics has separate crit tables for the various classes/levels and different types of monsters, as well as fumble tables based on how much armor you're wearing. Another cool tweak they offer is wider threat/crit ranges for warriors only, not the other classes or subclasses. So even at 1st level, warriors crit on 19-20; by 9th level it's 17-20. I've definitely decided to use that in my C&C games for fighters & barbarians only. But after playing DCC for a couple months, I found repeatedly looking things up on so many different crit charts was a pain and slowed the game down.

So I think, for our impending C&C campaign, we're going to use the Crit & Fumble tables (option 5) from the CKG, p. 303, retaining my house rules for damage causing spells and hit location, along with the greater threat range for fighters & barbarians. But I'm ditching the exploding dice, since with the way saves and the Siege Engine work in C&C, there's already a bit more lethality built in. I'm revising my 20 HP "kicker" to a bonus d14+Con bonus or bonus d16+Con bonus (for martial characters) at first level, in addition to whatever they roll. So theoretically they could still have really crappy HP at first level, or you could have more than 30. But I kind of like the randomness and it allows me to use those extra funky DCC dice. I came to this solution after vacillating between the 10 & 20 HP "kicker." We use the 10 HP kicker in our B/X or OSE games at 1st level.

The thing is, my players definitely like the use of criticals, even though it's resulted in some pretty high level PCs biting the dust, but we also prefer a quick way of doing them. So having just one table for crits & fumbles is nice and the one in the CKG is a bit more forgiving than mine. But we'll see how it plays.

Curious as to whether or how others do crits & fumbles?
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Kayolan
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Kayolan »

A natural 20 on the to hit roll gives you maximum damage, no need to roll damage.

A natural 1 means you lose your next turn. You aren't helpless but cannot take any action the next round.

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Grandpa »

Nat 20 = immediate extra attack roll against same opponent
Nat 1 = lose next attack roll but otherwise can act

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by maximus »

Natural 20 - roll extra d6 damage

Natural 1 - roll Dex save. If saved, treat as a missed attack. If you miss the save, it's a fumble (dropped weapon, broken bow string, etc), so you lose your next turn.

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Rigon »

I have used several Crit/Fumble systems over the years.

Currently:
Nat 20: max damage (with all modifiers) plus and additiona 1d6 damage
Nat 1: Lose next turn

I am thinking of switching to this for crits:
Nat 20: roll damage dice twice, then add in any modifiers (the 5e system)
Fumbles would still be lose of next turn

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by serleran »

Like others, I have used many different systems. The three with the greatest duration were:

1) On a natural 20, if a 20 was not required, roll again. If you score a hit, triple damage or double on a miss.

2) On a natural 20, if a 20 was not required, deal double damage.

3) On a natural 20, even if it was not required, deal maximum damage +1d4.

I have stopped using critical hits.

Regarding "fumbles" the only one I can really remember was a natural 1 either made you stumble or you had to roll a grenade-like missile scatter and an attack roll; this meant you may end up hitting someone else. We used it in a C&C game and my druid's pet bear ended up being slain because of it - my wife shed some tears for the fake beast and I decided I didn't want that sort of rule anymore.

For the most part, while they can be fun to score, they are more prevalent against the party. Unless you don't allow monsters to hit back.

Also, I decided a long time ago the "if a natural 20 was required" thing needed to be there as I disliked a flat 5% to crit anything.

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Lurker »

I've played under Tree's and Rigon's GMing and they both do what Ridon mentioned in his post

I've ran it where a crit did auto max damage and then an additional damage dice of damage, which is similar to theirs and it worked well.

However, I've been kicking around a house rule with a crit table (nothing like MERP or Rolemaster's bloat of tables) where the damage can be anywhere from max + damage dice up to damage x4 and some other effects (opponent's armor damaged reduce AC by d4 / opponent loses initiative and goes last for the remainder of the combat things like that). One thing it DOES NOT have is an auto 'you killed the opponent outright result.

I've never play tested it to say how it works so I can't say for sure if it is good or not.

I've had Rogon, Tree, and the rest of the ne'er-do-wells look at it and they do have concerns. That it may slow down the combat (it is only 1 extra roll though and it should build a little excitement), it may be to brutal with a chance for them to do x4 damage ( though at is a 1% chance) or even x3 damage (only 10% chance) but still a few crits and it will add up quickly.

Tree also pointed out that since most of the time the DM rolls more often since it is groups of monsters attacking a few players or a large monster getting claw claw bite each round and it is a good point. However, I would argue that as the DM, for purposes of good narrative, I could waive some of those crits (some not all) if my dice were on fire (very very unlikely just ask the rest of the Monday nighters). Or it could be a lesson that the group does need to learn that there are times running away is the better option and they may need to retreat to live to fight another day.
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Fizz
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Fizz »

The most common system i used was during my AD&D 2nd Ed days. It was based on class.

Wizards: 20
Priests / Rogues: 19-20
Warriors: 18-20
Specialized fighters: 17-20

If rolled in that range, then you have the potential a critical. You roll again (not another attack) to check for the critical. If successful you have 2x damage, and if within the critical range, you can then check for 3x damage. And so on.

It isn't too time consuming (usually just one extra roll), and generates excitement as multiples start to mount. Our record was a 6x critical. I also like that it makes warriors more deadly, and makes criticals against easy-to-hit targets more likely.

For fumbles, usually it was just an extra Dex or Str check to see if the weapon was fumbled, or lost footing, etc, depending on the situation. At most it cost you a turn, at best it's just a miss. Nothing too harmful.


-Fizz

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Persimmon »

Cool; quite a few minor variations out there.

As I noted, my players have always enthusiastically voted for criticals, even though they've suffered some brutal losses over the years as a result. And, to be fair, there have been some impressive kills by PCs. One thing I like is that it means even high level PCs can't take low level foes too lightly. Even an orc with a sword could potentially do more than 30 points of damage in a single strike. Getting rid of the exploding dice did mitigate that a bit.

And using the hit location die adds some cinematic flavor, especially if it's a killing blow.

On a related note, MERP had a rather sneaky way of preserving prominent NPCs from their lethal crit system. Almost all the prominent NPCs, like Galadriel, Elrond, etc., had magic items that negated various types of criticals. So they were nigh impossible to kill. Our hapless PCs on the other hand, were a hilariously maimed bunch. When the campaign petered out, we were rocking a one handed scout, a one legged bard, and a one-eyed mage. And the group had managed to get so many members of the Proudfoot clan killed that they were no longer welcome in the Shire!
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Captain_K »

Let the house rules come out!!!
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Captain_K »

Old Ice critical strike and fumble tables with some judicious editing on the fly... I store them in a red folder so the PCs are given three choices for criticals: 2x damage, double the dice, or the red book... they almost always go for the red book, less damage, but much more flavor and suspense...
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Captain_K »

Fumbles I tend to make on the spot something fun, humiliating, or adds flavor to the fight for both PCs and monsters. But again I smile wickedly and let PCs pick, red book or whatever I think is fitting... its amazing how the other PCs call for terror to their fellow player's PC... I guess we're all just blood thirsty Roman citizens at the Coliseum.
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Traveller »

No critical fumbles here, but a 20 invokes the Basic Roleplaying (specifically the 1981 version) impale rule: the weapon does maximum damage plus an additional die roll's worth of damage. For example, a sword normally doing 1d8 damage would do 8 + 1d8 damage.

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by JShan101 »

Crit hit: Max damage plus a roll.

Crit miss: No action next round. Plus, roll again: another 1 and weapon loses 2 pts of damage.

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Captain_K »

Fumbles are great times to make bad things happen to weapons.... crits by the bad guys are great times to have bad things happen to armor or supplies... CK, "The Ogre Mage is frustrated, he enlarges for a mighty blow.. that natural 20 is going to hurt.. I'll let you take it heroically, or attempt to get out of the way?" Player, "As I'm low on h.p., I will take the duck and cover option and attempt to fight another day." CK "OK, you side step the bulk of the blow using sword and shield to redirect. The Ogre's great 2H sword peels away the sharp edge of your blade, all the paint and rivet heads from your large wooden shield fly away in a cloud of paint chips and shrapnel, you're shield arm goes numb, and the blade tip lays open your back pack from top to bottom along its side. The back pack contents begin to spill out, but you only take d6 hp of damage instead of 2d10... you got lucky on that one". Player, "I'm not so sure about that... but I am definitely pissed!"
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by V00d00 »

As long as the 20 is equal in goodness as the 1 is in badness, I think many systems work.

I personally like the rule of doubling the damage (dice and modifiers) on a 20. On a 1, something happens (dropped weapon for example) that may require the player to lose their next action. Describing the effects of a natural 1 I think are also important, helps the player feel like more has happened in the turn than just a miss and the loss of their next turn.

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Lurker »

V00d00 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:40 am
As long as the 20 is equal in goodness as the 1 is in badness, I think many systems work.

I personally like the rule of doubling the damage (dice and modifiers) on a 20. On a 1, something happens (dropped weapon for example) that may require the player to lose their next action. Describing the effects of a natural 1 I think are also important, helps the player feel like more has happened in the turn than just a miss and the loss of their next turn.
First Voodoo, welcome ! Good to hear a new voice around here.

I agree on good of 20 should be balanced by bad of 1 .

I said earlier I am kicking around the idea for various effects, but since I'm getting ready to run a game for 3 novice players, that may be to complicated, so I'll more than likely do the 'max damage, + damage d roll' or something simple like that.

I whole heartedly agree on the narrative of a 1 being as important as the mechanic of what it causes, unless it is me on roll20/map tools … you can only narrate sooooo many ways of 'you missed yet again … are you sure you are cut out to be an adventurer, because your luck is abismial ...' :lol:
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by wasgreg »

serleran wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:35 pm
Like others, I have used many different systems. The three with the greatest duration were:

1) On a natural 20, if a 20 was not required, roll again. If you score a hit, triple damage or double on a miss.

2) On a natural 20, if a 20 was not required, deal double damage.

3) On a natural 20, even if it was not required, deal maximum damage +1d4.

I have stopped using critical hits.

Regarding "fumbles" the only one I can really remember was a natural 1 either made you stumble or you had to roll a grenade-like missile scatter and an attack roll; this meant you may end up hitting someone else. We used it in a C&C game and my druid's pet bear ended up being slain because of it - my wife shed some tears for the fake beast and I decided I didn't want that sort of rule anymore.

For the most part, while they can be fun to score, they are more prevalent against the party. Unless you don't allow monsters to hit back.

Also, I decided a long time ago the "if a natural 20 was required" thing needed to be there as I disliked a flat 5% to crit anything.
I let my players decide on the system before I started, with the knowledge/forewarning that the things attacking them would use the same system. I was not going to use a crit system at all, b/c it hurts the party much more over time. But they chose to establish one. We finished up a fight where I kept rolling twenties and they kept rolling ones. I had some bad rolls as well, but it was the first time the dice went in my favor so much. Now there is talk about it being too deadly of a feature * shakes head *

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Captain_K »

Lurker, Sounds like your natural unluck would make you a great addition to our team or even team Fred. Ever read the comic Longshot? The premise there is all luck to a person or an event must be balanced, thus your natural unluckiness fuels someone else who is always lucky. Good for your Karma one hopes. Someone is thanking you every time you roll a 1, their 20 is much appreciated.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Captain_K »

wasgreg, Been there lived that... my group formed and they rolled so many 1s it was comical... a single goblin survived 3 combat rounds surrounded by 3 or 4 PCs thanks to 1s and other really low rolls. we adopted luck points and hero points shortly there after, that has helped some. But when we switched to FG in another group, that is where it really has swung both ways... some fights are 20s after 20s by the CK and other nights it goes the other way.. comes and goes... but I think the human find filters preferentially...
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by AntiquarianAspirant »

Back in my 3E/Pathfinder group, we'd roll normal damage after a crit, then double the result. I don't remember ever doing fumbles because it was an unspoken rule that as little as possible should interfere with the PCs being able to act and utilize their ability set (heck, I don't think we ever differentiated much between Stun and Daze because no one was okay with their PCs dropping their gear), and most fumble rules I see involve dropping weapons and losing actions. Our DM never threw critfishing monsters at us and I don't think even boss enemies hit quite as hard as we did, so no one ever complained.

These days I'd probably just go by the CKG's Option 1 for max damage and a small bonus for a critical hit, and dropping a weapon/breaking a bowstring for a fumble. Option 6's expanded tables look quite fun, but I'm wondering if they bog down combat overly much, or if they add enough fun to be worth it anyway.

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Persimmon »

What I've actually found with expanded descriptive crit tables is that they get old pretty fast because before too long, you're repeating it all anyhow. So we use a more abstract method. Basically we use option 5 from the CKG, but the player also rolls a d20 hit location die (courtesy of the Modiphius Conan game) and then the player or CK describes the critical. Allows for variation but keeps rolling to minimum.
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Grandpa »

Here's a table for rough and tumble games. Don't use with players who aren't used to PCs getting hurt.
https://i.ibb.co/my5tssf/arduin.png

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Persimmon
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Persimmon »

Grandpa wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:59 pm
Here's a table for rough and tumble games. Don't use with players who aren't used to PCs getting hurt.
https://i.ibb.co/my5tssf/arduin.png
Damn! I like these. Simple, yet brutal. Definitely need some backup PCs if you're rolling with this.
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Grandpa
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Grandpa »

Persimmon wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:04 pm
Grandpa wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:59 pm
Here's a table for rough and tumble games. Don't use with players who aren't used to PCs getting hurt.
https://i.ibb.co/my5tssf/arduin.png
Damn! I like these. Simple, yet brutal. Definitely need some backup PCs if you're rolling with this.
They are from the Arduin RPG

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by AntiquarianAspirant »

Grandpa wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:59 pm
Here's a table for rough and tumble games. Don't use with players who aren't used to PCs getting hurt.
https://i.ibb.co/my5tssf/arduin.png
Wow. I don't think I'd use that for any party I intend to run long-term, but that'd be absolutely delightful to run in a megadungeon group or a one-shot.

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Grandpa »

AntiquarianAspirant wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:06 am
Grandpa wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:59 pm
Here's a table for rough and tumble games. Don't use with players who aren't used to PCs getting hurt.
https://i.ibb.co/my5tssf/arduin.png
Wow. I don't think I'd use that for any party I intend to run long-term, but that'd be absolutely delightful to run in a megadungeon group or a one-shot.
Back in the day ('78-'80) we played Arduin and of course these were the standard tables. Great set of races to play. I use a couple in C&C. Fumble table is great too.

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Captain_K »

Damn, I thought I could be an evil bastard with my old Arms Law Critical hits and fumbles.. but that is some nasty shit!!!!!
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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Grandpa »

Captain_K wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:54 am
Damn, I thought I could be an evil bastard with my old Arms Law Critical hits and fumbles.. but that is some nasty shit!!!!!
Definitely not for the milk & cookies with nap time (5E rest time) crowd. :lol:

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Re: Criticals & Fumbles

Post by Persimmon »

The value and fun of criticals was reinforced today when we were playing A-5. The party was pretty much having their way with ungern guards and lesser foes. But a couple of nasty crits delivered by the ungern, resulting in 30 points of damage in one case, provided a nice wake-up call. That's why I love having crits. Even low level foes can be dangerous for characters at any level.
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