Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

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Grandpa
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Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Grandpa »

The Listen "skill" has never sat well with me being connected to Wisdom. It really has nothing to do with wisdom. In fact it doesn't fit with any of the five other abilities. Plus the Rogue most needs it and taking Wisdom as a Prime is not a great investment.

So, WHAT to do? A so often happens to me, the AD&D DMG came to the rescue. "Keen-eared individuals will gain a bonus of 1 or 2 in 20 (5% or 10%). Use chance of hearing a noise to determine if a character is keen-eared the first time he or she listens at a door,"

So the first time a character rolls you apply the following based on the unmodified roll: If 18 +1, if 19 +2, if 20 +3 to all future listen rolls. You could also be mean and apply negatives based on that first roll if very low...

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Persimmon »

Of course it's connected to Wisdom. Wise people know when/how to listen.
Behind closed eyes, realize your sight....

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Grandpa »

Persimmon wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:43 pm
Of course it's connected to Wisdom. Wise people know when/how to listen.
:lol:

Good one. Unfortunately that doesn't influence how well your ears pick up and deliver sound to your brain.

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Hakdov »

Sounds good to me. I dislike clerics being better at seeing and hearing things than everyone else. It should just be a matter of race (elves are better) and class (thieves are better).

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Fizz »

Wisdom has become the de-facto "sensory" stat in d20-esque systems. The argument you make for the listen skill is equally valid to many other abilities. Spot checks are based on wisdom- why? How is wisdom related to sight?

Of course, this is a result of the evolution of D&D and C&C: Listen used to be Detect Noise, which was percentage based, so not tied to Wisdom. But with the advent of a universal mechanic, it had to have an attribute. This is one of the downsides of a single mechanic, in my opinion.

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by jahydin »

Did not know that was in the DMG! Pretty crazy how many times I've read it and there is still things I miss...

This dilemma is one of the reasons why I use my modified SEIGE engine. Between 5E's Adv/Dis and using the Primary, Secondary, Non-Prime system, a Rogue with average Wis can select it as a Secondary and still have a 44% chance to succeed at level 1. A Cleric with Prime and average Wis would be 40%.

Because I drop the number needed to succeed every 2 levels, this also causes the gap of success to increase every level too. A nice mathematical perk of Advantage. For instance, if both are level 6, the Rogue would be at 64% success, the Cleric 55%. Not to mention the Rouge should be leveling faster.

And I don't mind Wisdom being tied to listen. I see it tied to clearing the mind, mediation, and mental focusing; all things that would help listening.

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Grandpa »

Fizz wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:09 am
The argument you make for the listen skill is equally valid to many other abilities.
Not really. Hearing dB level is a purely mechanical function of sensitivity of the auditory organ. Looking at something and discerning what it is you are seeing is not so much that if both people can see. Both may see the same thing and not realize what they are looking at. Wis or Int plays a much larger part as opposed to whether your organ actually detected a sound.

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Grandpa »

Grandpa wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:57 pm
Fizz wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:09 am
The argument you make for the listen skill is equally valid to many other abilities. ... Of course, this is a result of the evolution of D&D and C&C: Listen used to be Detect Noise, which was percentage based,
Not really. Hearing dB level is a purely mechanical function of sensitivity of the auditory organ. Looking at something and discerning what it is you are seeing is not so much that if both people can see. Both may see the same thing and not realize what they are looking at. Wis or Int plays a much larger part as opposed to whether your organ actually detected a sound.

Also, in AD&D Listen was "Listen" It wasn't % based. The THIEF skill was Detect Noise. % based but not used by other classes as they had "Listen". Listen was a number on a D20 roll. Dwarves rolled a 1 or 2 on a D20 to succeed if I remember correctly.

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Rigon »

I have a Perception score for PCs that is rolled against a set 15.

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Fizz »

Grandpa wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:05 pm
Not really. Hearing dB level is a purely mechanical function of sensitivity of the auditory organ. Looking at something and discerning what it is you are seeing is not so much that if both people can see. Both may see the same thing and not realize what they are looking at. Wis or Int plays a much larger part as opposed to whether your organ actually detected a sound.
And detecting light is a purely mechanical function of sensitivity of the visual organ. There is an important distinction here: sensitivity versus discernment. These are two different things. Consider the two paradigms:

1: sensitivity If Detect Noise / Listen is purely about the sensitivity of the ear, then Spot / vision must be purely about the sensitivity of the eye. Just as some people can hear faint noises, some people can see faint light; they see better in the dark. Such a character might not be able to recognize details, but they can make out vague shapes (the same as an ear's ability to pick up different dB levels). Such character's eyes are more light sensitive.

2: discernment Now if you want to say that Wis/Int plays a role in sight to understand or pick out details (quickly finding one specific book in a giant bookcase, what have you) in what they are seeing, that's fine. But in that case Wis/Int would also apply to Listen as the ability to understand the sound or making out the details: running water versus the sound of applause, picking out one voice in a roomful of whispers, whatever you want to compare. Such people can discern sounds better.

Hence the two senses are analagous (heck, they're both waves- one pressure the other electromagnetic), so long as you are comparing the same thing: sensitivity or discernment. Sensitivity to light or sound is about the organ's ability to collect the wave, while the ability to discern / understand it is a function of the brain (wisdom and/or intelligence in game terms).

Also, in AD&D Listen was "Listen" It wasn't % based. The THIEF skill was Detect Noise. % based but not used by other classes as they had "Listen". Listen was a number on a D20 roll. Dwarves rolled a 1 or 2 on a D20 to succeed if I remember correctly.
Yes, but you started the thread by referring to the Listen "skill" (which is class-based). That skill evolved from the thief skill Detect Noise (hence why only specific classes have it). AD&D had rules for listening, but i'd not call it a skill because it couldn't improve with level.


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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Grandpa »

Rigon wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:40 pm
I have a Perception score for PCs that is rolled against a set 15.

R-
Good solution

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Fizz »

Rigon wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:40 pm
I have a Perception score for PCs that is rolled against a set 15.
R-
I have seen some people use a "Perception score", which is the average of Int and Wis. It essentially becomse another stat, though tightly related to two others.

-Fizz

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Grandpa »

Fizz wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:54 pm

And detecting light is a purely mechanical function of sensitivity of the visual organ.
Right but the roll isn't to detect light but to discern something camouflaged or disguised usually or not readily apparent. To detect a noise is completely different. To hear the orc drop the dagger 150' away vs. discerning that the crack in the wall isn't merely a crack is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY a different animal. ;)

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Fizz »

Grandpa wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:01 pm
Right but the roll isn't to detect light but to discern something camouflaged or disguised usually or not readily apparent. To detect a noise is completely different. To hear the orc drop the dagger 150' away vs. discerning that the crack in the wall isn't merely a crack is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY a different animal. ;)
I both agree and disagree. :)

Spotting a hidden door or camoflaged person does require discernment (wisdom) as you say. But with regards to the sound, that dropped dagger would require discernment as well. Without discernment, it would just be "you hear something over there". That's all the ear tells you, and it might not even be directional due to echoes (if in, say, a dungeon or cave). To know that what you heard was an orc dropping a dagger from 150' away, is what would require discernment (ie, how do you know it's a dagger at 150' versus a sword at 300' ?).

I think there is room for both mechanics, as it's all situational.


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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Grandpa »

Fizz wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:49 pm
Spotting a hidden door or camoflaged person does require discernment (wisdom) as you say. But with regards to the sound, that dropped dagger would require discernment as well. Without discernment, it would just be "you hear something over there".
Yes, sometimes it is so (GM decision). A person has heard something metal dropping on stone many times before. It is nothing like a piece of pine dropping on stone. I would require a wisdom roll for something not already experienced and cataloged in the noggin or so faint as to require thought. But that is why God made GMs. Or sentenced us to doing it. :o

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Fizz »

Grandpa wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:09 pm
Yes, sometimes it is so (GM decision). A person has heard something metal dropping on stone many times before. It is nothing like a piece of pine dropping on stone. I would require a wisdom roll for something not already experienced and cataloged in the noggin or so faint as to require thought. But that is why God made GMs. Or sentenced us to doing it. :o
I think we're agreeing in overall principle, just not in our examples. :)

Sound or sight, something that is obvious doesn't require a check. So an orc dropping a dagger on a stone floor and he's not too far away, then no check needed. Just like it doesn't require a spot check to see a large bookcase in a room.

Where checks are necessary are for things that are not obvious. Consider your example with Spot: you said discern something camouflaged or disguised usually or not readily apparent. Sound can be disguised too: when it is faint, distant, muffled, overpowered by another sound, etc.

You wouldn't let a character automatically spot a camouflaged foe, even if that character has spotted camouflage in the past, right? So similarly, that character might not recognize the sound of a dagger on stone when heard through a door, or from a far distance. Such factors are the "camouflage" of sound.


Depending on whether you consider the check as one of sensitivity or discernment, here are a couple examples i envsion, based on yours.

For sound sensitivity (no wis check): you hear a brief faint metallic sound coming from down the hall
For sound discernment (wis check): you hear the sound of a small metal weapon dropping to the floor- it must be a few hundred feet away.

For light sensitivity (no wis check): you notice that the bush doesn't look quite right- there is something unnatural about it
For light discernment (wis check): you spot a camouflaged orc in the bush, sword at the ready


Sensitivity gives you a general impression, but it's discernment that provides the details. Works for smell, taste and touch too. :)

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Lurker »

Fizz, I'm with you on this one

The thing I've added, to keep Clerics from being the masters of perception, is that the PC's level is only added if the target of perception (the key info to be gained) is in the wheel house of the PC.

In the above example of spotting a camouflaged character, that is in the arena of the Ranger and the Thief, so they get to add their level to the check. Everyone else still gets a check based on Prime or Non prime, but the cleric doesn't get to add their level to the check.

Oh yeah, sometimes I give specific information only the class would recognize.
A fighter might notice the orc's slight limp and know that anyone attacking that side of the monster will be at an advantage
A Cleric might notice that distant voices is actually a orc shaman's chanting and realize it is casting a prayer on it's allies (say something like bless or mirror image or something like that)
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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Fizz »

Lurker wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:46 am
The thing I've added, to keep Clerics from being the masters of perception, is that the PC's level is only added if the target of perception (the key info to be gained) is in the wheel house of the PC.
I've heard this concern about clerics before. But they like most classes don't have Listen as a class skill (only rogues and assassins i think). So clerics would not be adding level anyways, right? Or am i missing something?
Oh yeah, sometimes I give specific information only the class would recognize.
A fighter might notice the orc's slight limp and know that anyone attacking that side of the monster will be at an advantage
A Cleric might notice that distant voices is actually a orc shaman's chanting and realize it is casting a prayer on it's allies (say something like bless or mirror image or something like that)
This is a good idea.


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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by jahydin »

Lurker wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:46 am
The thing I've added, to keep Clerics from being the masters of perception, is that the PC's level is only added if the target of perception (the key info to be gained) is in the wheel house of the PC.
I like it! Since I don't bother with CLs or adding level to rolls, that's basically how I decide when to reward Advantage (2d20, keep highest) for any check.
Lurker wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:46 am
Oh yeah, sometimes I give specific information only the class would recognize.
That's a great point and one that I'll try to implement.

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Rigon »

Fizz wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:00 pm
Rigon wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:40 pm
I have a Perception score for PCs that is rolled against a set 15.
R-
I have seen some people use a "Perception score", which is the average of Int and Wis. It essentially becomse another stat, though tightly related to two others.

-Fizz
Her is my rule:

Perception: A perception check is called for during circumstances when the characters may notice something out of the ordinary. It does not replace any kind of search check covered by another race or class ability.
Check: 1d20+Perception Score vs 15
Perception Score:
a. The average (round down) of the bonuses from "mental" attributes.
b. If a character has any "mental" attribute as prime they gain a +1 to the check.
c. Races that gain a bonus to Listen checks gain that same bonus to perception checks (elf +2, gnome +3, etc)
d. Ranger, rogue, assassin, barbarian, illusionist, druid, skald, and bard classes gain a +1 to their check.


It mainly covers things that I fail to describe or I'm not clear on when setting the stage, so to speak. I know what my drawbacks as a CK are and this helps with that.

And I define "mental" attributes as Int, Wis, and Cha.

R-
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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Captain_K »

I create a perception (PERC) stat, just like a COM stat, to keep CHA pure, for all players for many little things (noticing the gold coin in the corner without searching, or the foot print in the poop, feeling the breeze has just changed directions in the tunnel), but it is lower than any class or race ability; those should always be superior abilities to what is in effect a way to find out who gets this hint from the DM. "Anyone roll over a 15??? No, I guess you'll find out the hard way, no tip off for you!"

When any PC makes a Listen check, its a class ability for thief and assassins (only) which should stress that you do not get a level bonus unless its class ability (again thieves and assassins only). If you are an elf or gnome you do get a +2 or +3 to a listen check (you do not get the racial ability to Listen - that is important), if they are thieves then they add that to their level bonus. LISTEN has become a WIS based ability, so thieves and assassins who take WIS as prime get to add the prime too. A Cleric cannot hear the things a thief or assassin can hear, even a gnomish cleric cannot hear what those two classes can hear... you must have two totally different levels of use of this "ability". The cleric cannot hear anything meaningful through a door because he is wise, as the thief who takes WIS as prime cannot cast cleric spells. To keep it all math, when a PC tries to do an out of class ability of another I give them a -6 or tell them not possible. Thus the cleric who attempts the thief ability to "Listen" they get a -6, which would cancel with their prime +6. Those trying to listen without WIS prime are at -6, no level bonus, only a WIS bonus should be added to succeed on a typical "18 or better siege check roll (you can roll, but you will likely fail). Again, I would still not let them hear the kind of things thieves can (A cat walking on a stone floor on the other side of the door - that is a hard no for all other classes and races). Basically, Listen is thief and assassin class ability and only those two classes have any real success at it.

I also use "skills" to help flesh out PCs back stories and know rather they can swim, ride a horse, or play a flute... no level bonus to skills either. There is no skill called listen, as there is a class ability for that and they do not teach classes in listen. I do not let skills trump abilities, some get close, like ride a horse, but not falling off and looking like you can ride are far different than the amazing horsemanship of a knight.

So if a 10th level thief, let's call him Radar O'Reilly, gives a listen to detect incoming, he will hear it before anyone else as he is the only class level ability to hear what others cannot in the first place and he gets to +10 as where others would not have the ability (at all) or have a minor bonus to hear what everyone else can hear, just a little sooner than others... thus Radar knows well before incoming arrive, everyone else waits until its painfully obvious with some getting to hear slightly before others.
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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by jahydin »

Fizz wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 2:17 am
I've heard this concern about clerics before. But they like most classes don't have Listen as a class skill (only rogues and assassins i think). So clerics would not be adding level anyways, right? Or am i missing something?
That is true, but not very helpful since it requires the Non-Prime Rogue to reach at least Lv 6 before matching the Prime Cleric's level of success. Since Listen is a specific Rouge class feature, that seems a little odd.

I think if you're playing by the rules, one way to handle it is just use common sense when determining what is heard if a character is listening. If it's something beyond what most classes could hope to hear, then that's when you ask the Rouge/Assassin to roll.

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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Lurker »

Rigon wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 3:01 pm
Fizz wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:00 pm
Rigon wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:40 pm
I have a Perception score for PCs that is rolled against a set 15.
R-
I have seen some people use a "Perception score", which is the average of Int and Wis. It essentially becomse another stat, though tightly related to two others.

-Fizz
Her is my rule:

Perception: A perception check is called for during circumstances when the characters may notice something out of the ordinary. It does not replace any kind of search check covered by another race or class ability.
Check: 1d20+Perception Score vs 15
Perception Score:
a. The average (round down) of the bonuses from "mental" attributes.
b. If a character has any "mental" attribute as prime they gain a +1 to the check.
c. Races that gain a bonus to Listen checks gain that same bonus to perception checks (elf +2, gnome +3, etc)
d. Ranger, rogue, assassin, barbarian, illusionist, druid, skald, and bard classes gain a +1 to their check.


It mainly covers things that I fail to describe or I'm not clear on when setting the stage, so to speak. I know what my drawbacks as a CK are and this helps with that.

And I define "mental" attributes as Int, Wis, and Cha.

R-
And I still argue a swashbuckler should be on the list to get a +1, because there is no way a giant killing Ranger should be better than a cool swashbuckler like Lupa :mrgreen:
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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by Rigon »

Lurker wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 1:47 am
Rigon wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 3:01 pm
Fizz wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:00 pm
Rigon wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:40 pm
I have a Perception score for PCs that is rolled against a set 15.
R-
I have seen some people use a "Perception score", which is the average of Int and Wis. It essentially becomse another stat, though tightly related to two others.

-Fizz
Her is my rule:

Perception: A perception check is called for during circumstances when the characters may notice something out of the ordinary. It does not replace any kind of search check covered by another race or class ability.
Check: 1d20+Perception Score vs 15
Perception Score:
a. The average (round down) of the bonuses from "mental" attributes.
b. If a character has any "mental" attribute as prime they gain a +1 to the check.
c. Races that gain a bonus to Listen checks gain that same bonus to perception checks (elf +2, gnome +3, etc)
d. Ranger, rogue, assassin, barbarian, illusionist, druid, skald, and bard classes gain a +1 to their check.


It mainly covers things that I fail to describe or I'm not clear on when setting the stage, so to speak. I know what my drawbacks as a CK are and this helps with that.

And I define "mental" attributes as Int, Wis, and Cha.

R-
And I still argue a swashbuckler should be on the list to get a +1, because there is no way a giant killing Ranger should be better than a cool swashbuckler like Lupa :mrgreen:
And you'd still be wrong.

R-
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Re: Listen "skill" fixed for my rules

Post by serleran »

I use my everyman rules for this.

Simply stated, every one gets a d12 and has between 1-4 in 12 for success, based on level. Some races and/or classes may get an additional +1-4. Further there are some magic items that give +4 or more, allowing, if all is maxed, a greater than 12 chance... but there may be penalties to the check, like listening to a wraith is hard to do if they want to remain silent.

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