SIEGE is still confusing.

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jahydin
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SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

Finally got the new addition and was disappointed the SIEGE rules are still as confusing as ever. Yeah sure, once you grok it you can manipulate it to work, but that takes more time and patience then most are willing to spend, especially with so many other "retro" games on the market. I honestly think if it were just rewritten and presented in a different matter it would go a long way in getting people excited about C&C again.

And really, the confusion comes down to one thing: choosing an appropriate Challenge Level (CL) for checks that are not in opposition to another creature.

In the Determining CL section of the new Player's Handbook (PH), it states Easy tasks should be given a CL of 1-5, Difficult 6-10, Very Difficult 11-15. The one example that is given says pushing over a heavy statue is an Easy to Difficult task, so 4 is chosen? What? Oh, and there's negative CLs to juggle around too, again with no real guidance other than to pick a number that feels right.

It also doesn't help that the PH gives twelve examples in the Attribute Check section of the book and only ONE has an actual CL number given.

Take this one for instance:
Original wrote:Climbing a large oak tree is easy for most reasonably fit people. A character climbing a tree in calm circumstances need not make a dexterity check. Climbing a tree while taking enemy fire from orcs is much more difficult. A character in this case might be required to make a dexterity check to avoid missteps or accidents due to the stress and added danger of the situation.
"Cool. What's the CL? Don't want to go too high or it will be automatic failure for Non-Primes... How about 2?
Which classes get to add Level? Rogue, Assassin, and Ranger for sure, but Barbarian sure seems like he should too... Maybe Monk as well? Maybe they don't even need to roll though? No, that can't be it, since they get to add their level that would be silly if they didn't get to use it. But this is the same roll needed to climb surfaces "others would find impossible", shouldn't this task be easier...?"

At the very least, I think the CLs need to be recategorized with better explanations. What is Easy for example? A CL 5 Dex check for a Level 1, 14 Dex Prime Rouge gives a 25% chance of success. That doesn't sound too Easy to me...

One way to think about it is would be:
A task that is Average Difficulty should have a CL equal to the median average level of the characters participating (ignoring outliers). That would give Prime's about a 45% chance of success and Non-Primes around a 15% chance.

From that idea I made this char to calculate CLs on the fly, again using average level as the baseline:
  • Very Easy: Level - 6
  • Easy: Level - 3
  • Average: Level
  • Difficult: Level + 3
  • Very Difficult: Level + 6
  • Heroic: Level + 9
Worth noting that the majority of tasks will fall between Easy (-3) and Hard (+3), giving Non-Primes a shot at these checks too.

Now, let's tackle some of those examples!
EXAMPLE 1:
Original wrote:Climbing a large oak tree is easy for most reasonably fit people. A character climbing a tree in calm circumstances need not make a dexterity check. Climbing a tree while taking enemy fire from orcs is much more difficult. A character in this case might be required to make a dexterity check to avoid missteps or accidents due to the stress and added danger of the situation.
Back to this. Let's say we have a party consisting of a Level 2 Rouge and Barbarian, a level 4 Fighter, and a level 3 Wizard. The average Level is 2 and we decide this is an Easy Task, so the CL is -1. Done!

EXAMPLE 2:
Original wrote:Stark is a 1st level ranger with a 15 dexterity. All rangers have the scale class ability that allows them to climb any “climbable” surface without a dexterity check. Difficult surfaces require a dexterity check. Stark finds himself in a well, there are hand holds between the bricks, however the bricks are covered in slime. The Castle Keeper does not want Stark to have an automatic climb chance, however, he wants him to have a much greater chance of getting out of the well. The CK sets the Challenge Level at -4
1st Level Ranger and the task was decided to be "Very Easy", so the CL would be -5. Pretty close to the -4 given in the example with none of the guess work!

EXAMPLE 3:
Original wrote:Logmar the Black, a 6th level fighter, is attempting to lift a fallen ship’s mast off his boon comrade while trying to avoid being swept overboard by a raging sea. The Castle Keeper rules that Logmar, with 16 strength (+2 modifier), would be able to lift the mast, but an attribute check is needed to determine if Logmar can succeed under the stress of the situation. The Castle Keeper has determined that the slipperiness of the deck and mast would equate to a challenge level of 8.
A Level 6 Fighter attempting a Difficult task would generate a CL of 9, again close to the example given and calculated in seconds.

Anyways, just my opinion on things. Hope this gives newer players a more consistent way to generate CLs for their group.

jahydin
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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

Oh, two more house rules for consideration:
  1. To really make SIEGE shine for the situations listed above, consider letting all Classes add their level. Then, for the Classes that are proficient in the task at hand, like Climbing for the Rogue, give them a +6 bonus to their roll (effectively making the difficulty two steps lower). This keeps all checks in the bounds of possibility for all party members while still giving advantage to those that deserve it.

    So, if you have a Level 6, Dex Prime Rogue attempting to climb a Difficult cliff with his equal Level companion, a Dex Prime Bard, the CL would be 9. This gives the Rogue a 60% to succeed (this is, after all, an Easy task for him), while still giving the Bard a 30% chance. If only the Rouge got to add his level, this task would be impossible for the Bard. That's no fun...
  2. Second, consider using the Tertiary Optional Rule in the CK Guide. Having three Challenge Bases (12, 15, 18) instead of two adds more variety and gives characters more of a chance to succeed at tasks, giving the CK more freedom to use Very Hard Difficulty ratings.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

Optional Rule: No Levels!

When making rolls in C&C, there's no need to add your Level to the roll.

When using a check that is using HD/Level for CL, just use CL = HD/Level - PC's Level.
When using my chart above, just Drop the level and just use the number listed (i.e.: Easy = -3)

Finally, instead of adding +/- 6 to rolls for expertise or lack thereof, use 5E's Adv/Dis system for even less math!

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by anvil242 »

I ask the players for an attribute check and have them tell me how much they passed or failed it by. The players know what their Primes are, and should know they need a 12 or 18. So the rogue says I passed by 8 and the wizard missed by 2. Now you are looking at real numbers and not equations (Got to get those PC's to pull their weight, you know). Now you, as CK can make a narrative decision and say the wizard nearly fell out of the tree only to be caught at the last moment by the agile rogue. C&C isn't really about numbers, the rules are light in this area, but now instead of just rolling the dice to see if you make it or not, you've added to the story

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Grandpa »

here is how you do it. Ignore 12 as anything. Tell players If Prime add 6 to the roll along with any other mods (ability score, etc.). If not they don't. CK ONLY calc CL off of 18 base. DONE!

Never understood why they mucked around with 12 as a base. An added unnecessary calc.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

Appreciate the responses!

Just so we're on the same page...

Challenge Class (CC) is the number you need to roll higher than to succeed at a given task. It's calculated by adding Challenge Base and Challenge Level together.

Challenge Base (CB) is either 12 or 18 depending on if the Attribute being tested is Prime or not.

Challenge Level (CL) is a number ranging from -10 to 20 and is determined by the CK on the fly. Less than 0 is Trivial, 1-5 is Easy, 6-10 Difficult, 11-15 Very Difficult 16-20 Heroic.

It sounds like both of you just use CL 0 and just go by feel if the players make it or not?


Out of curiosity, how would you handle the following scenario?:
Let's say there is a room with five locked doors: The difficulty to pick the locks ranges from Very Easy to Very Difficult.

There is a Level 1 and Level 6 Rouge who attempts to pick each door. How would you determine their chance of success for each one?

There is also a Level 8 Bard (Dex Prime) who wishes to Pick them as well. Does he even get a shot? One of the doors is Very Easy after all...
Also, what do you think the "Rules As Written" (RAW) approach would look like?

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

For me,

I would just use my chart and use average level (divided by 2) to get the following CLs: -3, 0, 3, 6, 9.

I agree with Grandpa, one CB really is the best, so using 18 gives me CCs of: 15, 18, 21, 24, 27.

Now you can either give the Rogue another +6 to reward his expertise, or give the Bard a -6 to punish his inexperience. I like using the Rogue as a baseline, so punish the Bard it is for me.

So for Level 1 Rogue, he needs to roll 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20 to succeed. His chance is 65%, 50%, 35%, 20%, 5%.
The Level 6 Rogue, she needs to roll 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15 to succeed. His chance for success is 90%, 75%, 60%, 45%, 30%.
The Bard will need to roll 7, 10, 13, 16, 19. His chance of success is 70%, 55%, 40%, 25%, 10%.

Reasonable results generated without any guessing in seconds!

Boring Maths here:
Rouge Lv1 gets + 7 to his roll due to being Prime (+6) and Level 1
Rouge Lv6 gets a +12 to her roll thanks to being Prime (+6) and Level 6
Bard gets a +8 to his roll thanks to being Prime (+6), Level 8, and the -6 penalty for attempting a skill outside his expertise.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

As for RAW,

I think the CLs would be: -4, 0, 4, 8, and 12. This was obtained by choosing values in each of their difficulty categories.

That gives us CCs of 14, 18, 22, 26, 30.

Lv 1 Rouge would need to roll 7, 11, 15, 19, and 23 to succeed. Making his chance to succeed 70%, 50%, 30%, 10%, 0%
Lv 6 Rouge would need to roll 2, 6, 10, 14, 18. Giving her a 95%, 75%, 55%, 35%, 15%.
Lv 8 Bard would need to roll 8, 12, 16, 20, 24. 65%, 45%, 25%, 5%, 0% for him.

Wow, that's pretty close to what I had actually... I guess that gives some insight into how their numbers were chosen. So instead of my house rules, you could just ask yourself:
For a proficient character of Level 6, how hard is this task for them?
Then from there choose a number from that Difficulty Category.

I will think on this...

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Grandpa »

jahydin wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:58 pm


Out of curiosity, how would you handle the following scenario?:
Let's say there is a room with five locked doors: The difficulty to pick the locks ranges from Very Easy to Very Difficult.

There is a Level 1 and Level 6 Rouge who attempts to pick each door. How would you determine their chance of success for each one?

There is also a Level 8 Bard (Dex Prime) who wishes to Pick them as well. Does he even get a shot? One of the doors is Very Easy after all...
Also, what do you think the "Rules As Written" (RAW) approach would look like?
As the CK I determine what "level" creature made the locks. I add that number to 18. That is the number any rogue needs to open. VERY simple.

RAW is about the same but with using 12 and 18 rather than just 18

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

Grandpa wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:05 am
As the CK I determine what "level" creature made the locks. I add that number to 18. That is the number any rogue needs to open. VERY simple.

RAW is about the same but with using 12 and 18 rather than just 18
Yup! But what Level would that be?
Do you take the party's Level into consideration too, or is the doors' CL determined completely separately?

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Grandpa »

jahydin wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:29 am
Yup! But what Level would that be?
Well the challenge level (the number added to 18 is equal to the level of item/opponent: So in my case 4th level because the lock maker was 4th level.

Example from PHB:
"Example: the 2nd level wizard deciphers a scroll bearing
teleport, which is a 5th level spell the wizard cannot normally
cast. The wizard attempts to cast the spell from the scroll,
but must first make a successful intelligence check with a
challenge level of five.
"
jahydin wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:29 am
Do you take the party's Level into consideration too, or is the doors' CL determined completely separately?
If you read the CK section in the PHB about what you add to the 12 or 18 base you will see that the party's level is irrelevant. That is because the level of the person making the check is accounted for. The example above the wizard adds his level (2nd) into his check to use the level 5 scroll. So he needs to roll a MODIFIED 23. 18 + 5. He adds 6 for int prime, 2 for level, and any Int bonus from high int score.

It is REALLY simple.

p.s. Start on page 205 (8th printing of PHB "Attributes & the game" Just ignore the base 12 when you read it. (see my method below). When you get to the section titled, Determining the Challenge Level it says this: "As a rule of thumb, a challenge level of 1 to 5 is adequate for easy tasks. For difficult tasks, a challenge level of 6 to 10 works well. For very difficult tasks, a challenge level of 11 to 15 suffices. Heroic actions require a challenge level of 15 to 20 or even higher. When in doubt, err on the low side since it never hurts a game to have a character succeed in something difficult."

Easy tasks get easier as you go up in level IF it is something you can add your level to in the check. Keep reading in the PHB until you get to, Adding Character Levels to Checks on pg. 211. Attributes and the Game on pg. 205 is instructive too.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

Oh, don't get me wrong, I understand completely how it works.

The point of all this trouble is specifically how to generate appropriate CLs for any situations as fast as possible when an opponent's HD/Level isn't handy or relevant.

For instance, your answer to my question would give each door in the room a CL 4. If your design goal was to have five doors of different difficulty, you would still need to come up with four more CLs.

I spent way too long crunching numbers last night though, but I do think I understand what they were going for when designing SIEGE.
  1. Anything that seems like it has a good chance of succeeding should just succeed. Anything that seems too far fetched should just fail. Keeps the game going and avoids awkward moments from freak die rolls.
  2. When testing against an opponent, just use their HD/Level for the CL. When it makes sense. For instance, hearing a Frost Giant through a door probably isn't CL 10.
  3. When HD/Level not available or relevant, imagine an experienced hero (Level 6) who's proficient in the task at hand. Decide if it would be Easy or Difficult. That covers most situations, but if needed, Very Difficult or Heroic can be selected as well. From there, you now have a range of five numbers to choose from. Start with CL 3 for Easy or CL 8 for Difficult. Now decide if you want to stay there or give a bonus/penalty of 2 depending on the situation. That's your CL!
So to my "room of doors" example, I would start with CLs of -2 and 13 (middle values of Very Easy and Very Difficult), but feeling generous (I want them to see what's behind the doors after all), so I reward a bonus of -2, making the first and last doors -4 and 11. The center door is 3 (middle of -4 and 11) and the last two doors will have CLs of 0 and 7 (from taking the middle values of -4 to 3 and 3 to 11). Making the final CLs -4, 0, 3, 7, and 11. CC would then be 14, 18, 21, 25, 29.

Our Level 6 Rogue would need rolls of 2, 6, 9, 13, 17. Chance of Success 95%, 75%, 60%, 40%, 20%. Pretty fun spread.

So no house rules, just another way of thinking of how to get CLs on the fly. I'm sure with enough practice most will be able to just assign them intuitively, but for those that are just starting the game, this might be an easier way to generate them.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Grandpa »

jahydin wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:03 pm
Oh, don't get me wrong, I understand completely how it works.

The point of all this trouble is specifically how to generate appropriate CLs for any situations as fast as possible when an opponent's HD/Level isn't handy or relevant.
I think EVERY GM should read and understand the section in the AD&D 1st Edition DMG titled, DICE on page 9.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by maximus »

anvil242 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:34 pm
I ask the players for an attribute check and have them tell me how much they passed or failed it by. The players know what their Primes are, and should know they need a 12 or 18. So the rogue says I passed by 8 and the wizard missed by 2. Now you are looking at real numbers and not equations (Got to get those PC's to pull their weight, you know). Now you, as CK can make a narrative decision and say the wizard nearly fell out of the tree only to be caught at the last moment by the agile rogue. C&C isn't really about numbers, the rules are light in this area, but now instead of just rolling the dice to see if you make it or not, you've added to the story
Yes, this is pretty much how I play it as well. It doesn't need to be complicated.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

maximus wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:35 am
anvil242 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:34 pm
I ask the players for an attribute check and have them tell me how much they passed or failed it by. The players know what their Primes are, and should know they need a 12 or 18. So the rogue says I passed by 8 and the wizard missed by 2. Now you are looking at real numbers and not equations (Got to get those PC's to pull their weight, you know). Now you, as CK can make a narrative decision and say the wizard nearly fell out of the tree only to be caught at the last moment by the agile rogue. C&C isn't really about numbers, the rules are light in this area, but now instead of just rolling the dice to see if you make it or not, you've added to the story
Yes, this is pretty much how I play it as well. It doesn't need to be complicated.
I feel playing this way is admitting the subject of the thread is true: SIEGE is still confusing and the main reason why is determining CLs is unclear.

Posting on this forum, I was kind of expecting, "Oh, RAW is fine, here's how to decide that CL..." rather than "Oh, ignore RAW and just wing it." :lol:

Not saying this way of doing it is wrong. Maybe it is the best way! But when it comes time to write the 9th edition of the rules, maybe it might be worth while to see how the fans are actually playing the game rather than writing out rules everyone ignores. Be much easier on newer players I would think.

I'm thinking simple CL 0 for everything that needs a roll and doesn't have HD/Level to compare against?

Then as an "Advanced Rule", the normal CC = CB + CL system can be introduced since I do think it has merit. Degrees of success, differentiating between easy and difficult tasks, and building a consistent world that offers players challenges they can get better at overcoming is important. Just needs more examples with actual CL numbers...

Anyways, thank you all for the responses. Talking SIEGE is quickly becoming my favorite pastime.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Grandpa »

jahydin wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:48 am

I feel playing this way is admitting the subject of the thread is true: SIEGE is still confusing and the main reason why is determining CLs is unclear.
They ONLY way determining CL could be made easier is if they spelled out every possible situation and its mod. As it is, numbers for 90% of of the checks ARE given and ranges for another 5% are given. That leaves about 5% for the CK to come up with. As far as "confusing" what is confusing about 12 and 18 if prime or not? Or its mathematical equivalent of not adding 6 to the dice roll or adding it?

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

Grandpa wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:06 pm
As it is, numbers for 90% of of the checks ARE given and ranges for another 5% are given. That leaves about 5% for the CK to come up with.
What do you mean by this? For situations where HD/Level are not used for the CL, I don't see very many examples in the book at all.
Grandpa wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:06 pm
As far as "confusing" what is confusing about 12 and 18 if prime or not? Or its mathematical equivalent of not adding 6 to the dice roll or adding it?
Again, this isn't the confusing part. In order to make a check, a character needs to roll higher than the CB (12 or 18) AND the CL (-4 to 20) added together. Determining the CL is the confusing part. -4 to 20 is a huge range with very little guidance on how to select a reasonable number. Also, the categories of Easy to Heroic are also not well defined. Easy to who? Cl 5 is considered "Easy", but for a Level 1 character that's Prime, they would need to roll at least a 16 to succeed. That's a 25% shot. Doesn't really seem all that easy to me...

Just look at the 2nd example for a Strength Check (pg 209, 8th edition). It mentions a Halfling Barbarian and Human Ranger attempting to swim across a raging river. The guidance is maybe the Halfling fails automatically, maybe he has to roll against a Very difficult or Heroic CL. In that one sentence we are told the CL is either impossible or between 11 to 20. That's a penalty of -55% to -100% to the Halfling's 45% chance of success. Quite a range! Some more help narrowing that number down would be really helpful.

And just to further add to my point. Notice this example mentions the reason the Halfling is having such a hard time is because he was from the desert and the Ranger gets to go against a CL of 6 to 10 because he grew up near water? This is suggesting that not only do you need to decide how hard a task is in general, but you also need to adjust it to reflect how hard it is for each character. Then once you do that, you still have a range of -5% to -25 to decide on.

How is this not confusing?

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Grandpa »

jahydin wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:09 pm
What do you mean by this? For situations where HD/Level are not used for the CL, I don't see very many examples in the book at all.
"There are more arbitrary situations that require the Castle
Keeper to create an adequate challenge level. If a character
is attempting a task such as making an extraordinary jump or
swinging on a rope to grab an object, ..."

"As a rule of thumb, a challenge level of 1 to 5 is adequate for easy tasks. For difficult tasks, a challenge level of 6 to 10
works well. For very difficult tasks, a challenge level of 11 to 15 suffices. Heroic actions require a challenge level of 15 to 20 or
even higher. When in doubt, err on the low side since it never hurts a game to have a character succeed in something difficult."

There are multiple paragraphs that cover this exact topic. I fail to understand what is difficult about the instructions

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Ancalagon »

jahydin wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:09 pm
<snip> This is suggesting that not only do you need to decide how hard a task is in general, but you also need to adjust it to reflect how hard it is for each character. Then once you do that, you still have a range of -5% to -25 to decide on.

How is this not confusing?
Just play the game. Experience with running the game will help you make those determinations.
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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

Ancalagon wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:30 am
Just play the game. Experience with running the game will help you make those determinations.
I agree, and I think I have a pretty good grasp on what I like to use at my table, but I can't help but notice it's widely different than what's written in the book. I'm also noticing everyone's suggestions are, again, pretty different than how the book tells you to handle things. SIEGE is after all one of the main selling points of the product, after 20 years of everyone playing this game, I would hope we can come up with better explanations of how to choose an appropriate CLs then "just wing it", "go with what sounds good", "just keep playing, then you'll understand", and "just see what they roll and decide at the moment if it works", lol.

But honestly, if it's not confusing, please give me CLs for the following:

A Halfling Bard (CHR/DEX Prime), Elf Rouge (DEX/INT Prime), Human Ranger (STR/DEX/WIS Prime), and Human Cleric (STR/CON/WIS Prime) want to...:
  1. climb a surface! The surface is slick with little hand holds. Oh, the Ranger's background features rock climbing and the Cleric is currently weighed down a bit. What's the CL and why?
  2. appraise a gem! It's nothing they've seen before, so it will be hard, but you still want to give them a chance. What's the CL and why?
  3. make a bomb! They just stumbled upon some gun powder and the Rouge found out it was flammable. The player suggests it and you think it's kind of a cool idea, but want him to roll for it and be almost impossible... but still have a tiny shot. What's the CL and why?
I could be completely wrong, and I'm okay with that, but I think for most people handling this using only RAW would be quite difficult. But I'm very curious how others would handle this (as well as my 5 doors of various difficulty example above), especially Grandpa, since this is so "easy" for him, lol. At the very least, one would probably need to know the level of the party to make the CLs fair (which is not RAW), but I have a feeling most would just roll the die, check it against 12 or 18, and make their best call on the spot. .Which is fine, but maybe that's what needs to be in the Player's Handbook and not the current explanation... because the current explanation is confusing!

Just a thought.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Rigon »

1. CL 4; Slick surface makes it a bit harder, but hand holds help.
2. CL 3; I'm assuming they've evaluated other gems, so would understand how to do the thing.
3. CL 10; The roll wouldn't be for making the bomb, it would be for accidentally setting it off.

I think you are asking a question with out a diffinitive answer. We can't tell you what the exact CL of any given situation is, because that would be a book beyond imaging. If you are looking for a set number for everything, look at 3e/Pathfinder. They seem to think everything should have a number assigned to it. I don't want that kind of restriction.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

Rigon wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:10 pm
1. CL 4; Slick surface makes it a bit harder, but hand holds help.
2. CL 3; I'm assuming they've evaluated other gems, so would understand how to do the thing.
3. CL 10; The roll wouldn't be for making the bomb, it would be for accidentally setting it off.

I think you are asking a question with out a diffinitive answer. We can't tell you what the exact CL of any given situation is, because that would be a book beyond imaging. If you are looking for a set number for everything, look at 3e/Pathfinder. They seem to think everything should have a number assigned to it. I don't want that kind of restriction.

R-
Hello Rigon, thanks for the response!

No, not looking for that all. I too like how freeing the SIEGE engine can be.

I'm beginning to think Attribute Checks might not be as important to other peoples games, but I use them all the time, so wanted a more solid foundation to generate fair numbers no matter the party level. More specifically, I want a number to represent how hard I think a task is in relation to the player attempting it on the fly. So I created the table you see in my first post. I'm pretty happy with it and that's what I'm going to use. If anyone else wants quick CLs, I hope they find it useful.

Most of the back and forth you see is just me trying to explain why SIEGE would be confusing to new players just getting into the game. I guess what I'm really saying is, my method looks really complicated, but it really isn't. The way SIEGE is written right now makes it look stupid simple, but it really isn't. Just my opinion of course.

When I start explaining SIEGE to my gaming friends, the entire concept of CC = CB + CL seems pretty cumbersome to them, especially if they're coming from the OSR and everything is just "roll under stat to succeed". Also, one of the trickiest things about SIEGE is just how quickly you can take Non-Primes out of the fun by making their rolls impossible. There is no reason why C&C couldn't be written in a slightly different manner to make this a non issue, again IMO. It could be as easy as "in the absence of HD/Level to riff off of, just roll against your CB and note the difference to the CK". The CK then could have a chart similar to mine to determine success.

As for the CLs you chose, they all look very reasonable and I can tell you understand the system pretty well. I don't think you could have come up with those just using the advice given in the book though. For instance, both of your CLs for 1 and 2 are considered "Easy" by the books definition, even though my description make them sound anything but. Also, my third task I wanted to be borderline impossible, yet you assigned it a number in the "Difficult" category. That's just one step above Easy!

Again, your numbers are fine. I think you knocked it out of the park even. I just don't think the book does a good job communicating how to select reasonable numbers as you have.

Just as an example of how my method works, I would take party level in consideration (since I'm using them as the baseline of how hard I think these should be), so let's say the average level is 4.
  1. I think this should be an average task, so it will be a CL 4 STR check. Rouge and Ranger get to roll with +6 cause of expertise, Cleric is at -6 since he's weighed down. Success chance for Rouge/Ranger is %75, Bard 45%, Cleric is impossible (he'll need to drop some equipment or get some help!).
  2. Hard task, so INT check at CL is 7. Primes chance of success is %30, Non-Primes 0% (they will need Int bonus or a relevant background to attempt).
  3. Heroic task, so INT CL 13. No one can make this roll unless they have a relevant background or high INT modifier. But that's okay, if they fail the roll it's always something they can work towards as they level...
So anyway, without any system mastery whatsoever, one can come up with reasonable CLs with this method. It works even better using the Tertiary Optional rule. It's still very much free form just like SIEGE is intended to be, but a bit more grounded.

It's not meant for everyone, since many here are able to just pull numbers out from experience, but hopefully it can help those just getting into the system? It's useful to me and my group anyway. :)

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Grandpa
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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Grandpa »

jahydin wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:48 am


A Halfling Bard (CHR/DEX Prime), Elf Rouge (DEX/INT Prime), Human Ranger (STR/DEX/WIS Prime), and Human Cleric (STR/CON/WIS Prime) want to...:
  1. climb a surface! The surface is slick with little hand holds. Oh, the Ranger's background features rock climbing and the Cleric is currently weighed down a bit. What's the CL and why?
That you asked this question shows you have NOT read the rules. Why? Because in the Ranger description it says that this doesn't require a check if a natural surface as it uses his Scale skill.

REALLY, if you want help and you are given instructions to read the appropriate sections to help and you won't, you are wasting peoples time. And good will.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by jahydin »

Grandpa wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:42 am
REALLY, if you want help and you are given instructions to read the appropriate sections to help and you won't, you are wasting peoples time. And good will.
That is one ruling for sure, and it's up to the CK, but there is no reason why I couldn't determine this particular surface to be "dangerous" and require a roll.

Anyways, this will be my last post. My friends and I are having a good time with this, I just wanted to share.

Take care.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Grandpa »

jahydin wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:51 am

That is one ruling for sure, and it's up to the CK, but there is no reason why I couldn't determine this particular surface to be "dangerous" and require a
????? It is the basis for class skills. You haven't learned the basics that a player should know much less a person who would run the game. At LEAST learn the BASIC rules of the game from the RAW :roll:

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Lurker »

jahydin wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:40 am
...

I'm beginning to think Attribute Checks might not be as important to other peoples games, but I use them all the time, so wanted a more solid foundation to generate fair numbers no matter the party level. More specifically, I want a number to represent how hard I think a task is in relation to the player attempting it on the fly. So I created the table you see in my first post. I'm pretty happy with it and that's what I'm going to use. If anyone else wants quick CLs, I hope they find it useful.

Most of the back and forth you see is just me trying to explain why SIEGE would be confusing to new players just getting into the game. I guess what I'm really saying is, my method looks really complicated, but it really isn't. The way SIEGE is written right now makes it look stupid simple, but it really isn't. Just my opinion of course.

When I start explaining SIEGE to my gaming friends, the entire concept of CC = CB + CL seems pretty cumbersome to them, especially if they're coming from the OSR and everything is just "roll under stat to succeed". Also, one of the trickiest things about SIEGE is just how quickly you can take Non-Primes out of the fun by making their rolls impossible.
Not trying to be argumentative, but I haven't had an issue with that. I have a face to face game with both of my daughters ( 13 1/2 & 15 year old) who had a very little RPG experience from years ago when I tried to get them into gaming with Harvester's, but they didn't like it, my older daughter's best friend (15 year old) with no RPG experience, and her day who was a rpger back in the day that played D&D 1e 2e and a couple of other systems (but none of the recent 3e 5e etc systems.

They picked up the siege engine no issue. Admittedly that may be because they don't bring preconceived notions or have to relearn a new rule.
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Forgive all spelling errors.

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Fizz »

jahydin wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:48 am
A Halfling Bard (CHR/DEX Prime), Elf Rouge (DEX/INT Prime), Human Ranger (STR/DEX/WIS Prime), and Human Cleric (STR/CON/WIS Prime) want to...:
  1. climb a surface! The surface is slick with little hand holds. Oh, the Ranger's background features rock climbing and the Cleric is currently weighed down a bit. What's the CL and why?
The CL doesn't depend on anything other than the task itself. If the CK deems it an easy task, the CL is 1 to 5. If the CK deems it moderately difficult, then the CL is somewhere from 5 to 10. There is no dependence of class upon the value of CL. Personally, i'd say the CL is 7: it has lots of handholds, but slippery, so that sounds modestly difficult to me.

That's it. The CL is 7. It does not depend on the class. It's the inherent difficult of that task, indepedent of anything else.

But the bonuses that characters get to determine success does depend on class and primes. Now, i prefer using a +6 bonus for primes rather than the CB 12/18 dichotomy. So my CB is always 18. ( I think most C&C players work it this way. )

So the Challenge Class is 18+7 = 25. That's what a character must roll to be successful.

To the check, all classes roll 1d20 and add the relevant attribute modifier.
If the character's class has a relevant skill (such as the ranger's scale ability), they add their level to the check.
If the character has the relevent attribute as prime, they add +6 to the check.

And if the CK rules the cleric is weighed down, maybe he applies a -3 penalty for that. Maybe another character has a rope and grappling hook; that helps a lot so he might grant an extra +5 bonus.

And you're done.


-Fizz

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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by Lurker »

Fizz wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:01 am


The CL doesn't depend on anything other than the task itself. If the CK deems it an easy task, the CL is 1 to 5. If the CK deems it moderately difficult, then the CL is somewhere from 5 to 10. There is no dependence of class upon the value of CL. Personally, i'd say the CL is 7: it has lots of handholds, but slippery, so that sounds modestly difficult to me.

That's it. The CL is 7. It does not depend on the class. It's the inherent difficult of that task, indepedent of anything else.

But the bonuses that characters get to determine success does depend on class and primes. ...

And if the CK rules the cleric is weighed down, maybe he applies a -3 penalty for that. Maybe another character has a rope and grappling hook; that helps a lot so he might grant an extra +5 bonus.

And you're done.


-Fizz
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Re: SIEGE is still confusing.

Post by maximus »

Chased a new player out of here? Well done...

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