Very often, our group tends to ditch rolling ability checks and such in favour of a more direct approach. For example: A character states that he wishes to move a rock. The DM notes the character's strength score (in this case 13) and says that the player character is unable to move the rock by himself unless he comes up with a clever way of doing so.
The question is as follows: When judging the character's Strength score (or any other attribute, for that matter), how much stronger does a character get when his Strength score is a Prime? If we look at the modifier bonus, obviously a lot. The maximum bonus a character can get is +3 (at a score of 18). Whether the attribute is a Prime or not has a much, much greater impact on the task's difficulty (12 vs. 18).
A quick question
-
gideon_thorne
- Maukling
- Posts: 6176
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
Re: A quick question
Perhaps its not so much how much stronger the character is, but how effectively they have learned to apply their strength? The prime bonus could indicate a certain trained awareness of leverage and the like?
Training vs raw potential. The applications are many. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
Training vs raw potential. The applications are many. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
-
Vicar In A Tutu
- Mist Elf
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:00 am
Quote:
Perhaps its not so much how much stronger the character is, but how effectively they have learned to apply their strength? The prime bonus could indicate a certain trained awareness of leverage and the like?
My question still stands: A character with 18 Strength cannot lift the rock, but a character that has a Strength score of X (and which has Strength as a Prime) can lift the rock? What is X? Its frustrating when a character asks if he is strong enough to move the rock and I judge that he is not, only to have another character ask if he is strong enough. The first character had a Strength score of 18 (not Prime) while the second character had a Strength score of, say, 13 (Prime). Should the second character be able to move the rock?
-
Omote
- Battle Stag
- Posts: 11560
- Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
- Contact:
GT's point is a goood one, and as far as I've ever understood it how attributes are supposedto work. Attribute checks are built into the C&C game. So if your CK is not allowing you to roll, then he has to have another system. I would stress in this particular senario that you tell your CK that the mechanic of attribute cheks are what differentiate a prime strength score of 13, vs a non-prime strength score of 13. In this casre a ability roll sould be made.
Because honestly, in the senario you've described there would be no "mechanical" difference between prime and non-prime.
..........................................Omote
FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
Because honestly, in the senario you've described there would be no "mechanical" difference between prime and non-prime.
..........................................Omote
FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
-
gideon_thorne
- Maukling
- Posts: 6176
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
Vicar In A Tutu wrote:
My question still stands: A character with 18 Strength cannot lift the rock, but a character that has a Strength score of X (and which has Strength as a Prime) can lift the rock? What is X? Its frustrating when a character asks if he is strong enough to move the rock and I judge that he is not, only to have another character ask if he is strong enough. The first character had a Strength score of 18 (not Prime) while the second character had a Strength score of, say, 13 (Prime). Should the second character be able to move the rock?
By the core C&C rule, both have a chance, one is just better able to find more effective solutions to the problem than the other.
Page 8 in the PHB gives a multiplier on how much one can shift with given brute force.
The important question is, why would the prime STR be able to shift the rock over a non prime person? Perhaps the person with the STR in prime understands differing principles. Its all in the interpretation.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
The best thing to do is look at the SIEGE Engine mechanic.
Forget about the actual ability scores as they are mostly irrelevent.
Prime vs. Non-Prime is the difference between knowing how to apply that given ability and being unable to properly apply that ability. Hence the difference between a base Challenge rating of 18 for non-primes and 12 for primes.
The question is, how much of a Challenge is moving that rock/boulder?
Is it a nigh impossible task? Then make the Challenge Level a +5 or higher.
It is not overly difficult? Then make the Challenge Level between +0 and +2.
Then the Player rolls a d20 and tries to beat the modified challenge level, adding in an ability score bonus, if applicable. Since no classes have "Rock Moving" as a core ability, the PC does not get to add in his/her class level to moving the rock.
There's no need to complicate things by trying to compare a 10 STR score with an 18 STR score. If the PC with an 18 STR has that as a non-prime, then all base difficulties are 18 with the d20 roll having a +3 added to it. Beyond that, it just means that the PC has no idea how to apply his/her strength. If the PC with a 10 STR has that as a prime, all that means is that the PC with a 10 STR knows how to propely apply and utilize his/her strength.
Even then, there's no reason to over complicate things. If you CK wants to say that something is simply to large for a single PC to move, that's cool. If the CK says that the item is light enough to be easily moved by a PC and no roll is required, that's cool too. However, once there is a question about whether or not it can be moved, don't look at the actual score, just look at the SIEGE Engine, set a Challenge Level and toss that d20.
_________________
Earned the following:
50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran
Forget about the actual ability scores as they are mostly irrelevent.
Prime vs. Non-Prime is the difference between knowing how to apply that given ability and being unable to properly apply that ability. Hence the difference between a base Challenge rating of 18 for non-primes and 12 for primes.
The question is, how much of a Challenge is moving that rock/boulder?
Is it a nigh impossible task? Then make the Challenge Level a +5 or higher.
It is not overly difficult? Then make the Challenge Level between +0 and +2.
Then the Player rolls a d20 and tries to beat the modified challenge level, adding in an ability score bonus, if applicable. Since no classes have "Rock Moving" as a core ability, the PC does not get to add in his/her class level to moving the rock.
There's no need to complicate things by trying to compare a 10 STR score with an 18 STR score. If the PC with an 18 STR has that as a non-prime, then all base difficulties are 18 with the d20 roll having a +3 added to it. Beyond that, it just means that the PC has no idea how to apply his/her strength. If the PC with a 10 STR has that as a prime, all that means is that the PC with a 10 STR knows how to propely apply and utilize his/her strength.
Even then, there's no reason to over complicate things. If you CK wants to say that something is simply to large for a single PC to move, that's cool. If the CK says that the item is light enough to be easily moved by a PC and no roll is required, that's cool too. However, once there is a question about whether or not it can be moved, don't look at the actual score, just look at the SIEGE Engine, set a Challenge Level and toss that d20.
_________________
Earned the following:
50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran
Yep, interpretation and perhaps CK'ing style. Even with strict application of the rules, one can use the CL to adjust the difficulty of moving the rock.
How does the character attempt to do this?
A barbarian with an 18 STR goes and tries to lifts the rock up and carries it away. Even though it's not prime, I would reduce the CL (or apply the bonus) and then let him roll.
A gnome with a STR of 12 and prime will have a different CL depending on what he attempts. Does he try to lift the rock? Hard. Does he try to use his 8 ft. pole as a lever? Much easier, but he still needs to roll.
This way, both can attempt and both can succeed or fail - depending on how they approach the task.
[Edit. Hehe, Nelzie beat me to it, but I believe we're saying the same thing. ]
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
How does the character attempt to do this?
A barbarian with an 18 STR goes and tries to lifts the rock up and carries it away. Even though it's not prime, I would reduce the CL (or apply the bonus) and then let him roll.
A gnome with a STR of 12 and prime will have a different CL depending on what he attempts. Does he try to lift the rock? Hard. Does he try to use his 8 ft. pole as a lever? Much easier, but he still needs to roll.
This way, both can attempt and both can succeed or fail - depending on how they approach the task.
[Edit. Hehe, Nelzie beat me to it, but I believe we're saying the same thing. ]
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
Never, ever, in a fantasy game, or any RPG for that matter should be called "impossible" by the Game Master. Just say that the CL is a 35. Let the player figure out and realize that it is impossible for their character.
For some reason they are less likely to argue the point when you don't declare it impossible and assign a difficulty modifer that makes it impossible for their character instead. I guess its all in the wording as to whether or not they will argue.
For some reason they are less likely to argue the point when you don't declare it impossible and assign a difficulty modifer that makes it impossible for their character instead. I guess its all in the wording as to whether or not they will argue.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
I don't know... personally I like to believe that when you've got an 18 STR vs the 13 STR that it means something. That's one of the things I love about C&C is that not everything I do depends on a CL type check. I do occasionally call for basic DEX or STR checks where UNDER your ability number is good - a-la 2e/1e style.
So the way I would handle a LIFT situaiton is to say that after a certain amount of weight, the size of an object also plays an important role in 'how' to lift it. I would rule that an 18 STR barbarian who can dead lift 'X lbs', still needs to make his roll if the item has a lot of mass. Just because he is strong doens't mean he can properly wrap his 18" biceps around that rock and then lift it!
The 13 STR rougue with stringy arms (but used to lifting weights - thus a prime in STR) can only lift X amount of lbs - much less than the barbarian. If the rock falls under the maximum dead lift for his STR then I'll give him a chance since he can probably get his stringy arms wrapped around the rock, use his back and legs and have a much better chance than a non prime STR character. If it's beyond his MAX weight allowed, then he simply fails!
Also, I tend not to allow a character with less of a chance to actually succeed when someone with a good chance failed badly. It just doesn't make sense why the barbarian couldn'd lift 300lbs but the the scawny mage rolled a 20 and succeded! I know it's fantasy but I like to keep some things semi-real and concise.
It's really all a judgement call, but more imporatant to me personally is the imporatnce I put behind the actual ability scores.
BTW - I use the 2nd ed rules for max weights for STR.
So the way I would handle a LIFT situaiton is to say that after a certain amount of weight, the size of an object also plays an important role in 'how' to lift it. I would rule that an 18 STR barbarian who can dead lift 'X lbs', still needs to make his roll if the item has a lot of mass. Just because he is strong doens't mean he can properly wrap his 18" biceps around that rock and then lift it!
The 13 STR rougue with stringy arms (but used to lifting weights - thus a prime in STR) can only lift X amount of lbs - much less than the barbarian. If the rock falls under the maximum dead lift for his STR then I'll give him a chance since he can probably get his stringy arms wrapped around the rock, use his back and legs and have a much better chance than a non prime STR character. If it's beyond his MAX weight allowed, then he simply fails!
Also, I tend not to allow a character with less of a chance to actually succeed when someone with a good chance failed badly. It just doesn't make sense why the barbarian couldn'd lift 300lbs but the the scawny mage rolled a 20 and succeded! I know it's fantasy but I like to keep some things semi-real and concise.
It's really all a judgement call, but more imporatant to me personally is the imporatnce I put behind the actual ability scores.
BTW - I use the 2nd ed rules for max weights for STR.
Jynx wrote:
I don't know... personally I like to believe that when you've got an 18 STR vs the 13 STR that it means something. That's one of the things I love about C&C is that not everything I do depends on a CL type check. I do occasionally call for basic DEX or STR checks where UNDER your ability number is good - a-la 2e/1e style.
So the way I would handle a LIFT situaiton is to say that after a certain amount of weight, the size of an object also plays an important role in 'how' to lift it. I would rule that an 18 STR barbarian who can dead lift 'X lbs', still needs to make his roll if the item has a lot of mass. Just because he is strong doens't mean he can properly wrap his 18" biceps around that rock and then lift it!
The 13 STR rougue with stringy arms (but used to lifting weights - thus a prime in STR) can only lift X amount of lbs - much less than the barbarian. If the rock falls under the maximum dead lift for his STR then I'll give him a chance since he can probably get his stringy arms wrapped around the rock, use his back and legs and have a much better chance than a non prime STR character. If it's beyond his MAX weight allowed, then he simply fails!
Also, I tend not to allow a character with less of a chance to actually succeed when someone with a good chance failed badly. It just doesn't make sense why the barbarian couldn'd lift 300lbs but the the scawny mage rolled a 20 and succeded! I know it's fantasy but I like to keep some things semi-real and concise.
It's really all a judgement call, but more imporatant to me personally is the imporatnce I put behind the actual ability scores.
BTW - I use the 2nd ed rules for max weights for STR.
Well, going by the OP's example the CK shouldn't be saying its impossible. He should be saying its a CL5, 10, or whatever. That way you get to see the difference between a 1 3 or an 18 and Prime/Non-Prime.
So he is basically shooting himself in the foot by using the word impossible to begin with.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Treebore wrote:
Never, ever, in a fantasy game, or any RPG for that matter should be called "impossible" by the Game Master. Just say that the CL is a 35. Let the player figure out and realize that it is impossible for their character.
For some reason they are less likely to argue the point when you don't declare it impossible and assign a difficulty modifer that makes it impossible for their character instead. I guess its all in the wording as to whether or not they will argue.
I agree.
I had a player ask if he could leap from the bottom of a set of rough hewn steps leading up the side of a cliff face, slightly slick from the nearby waterfall, after running almost two to three miles through the streets of a city. (He could have made the jump because of his ring of jumping.)
I said, you can give it a go. I set a very high challenge level and explained the reasons why. (I had also made both him and the guy he was chasing make Stamina checks, both had failed them and were quite winded.) I then said that failure here would most likely result in slipping off the edge and falling to his death on the rocks below. He decided against it.
Of course, a very short time later, he decided to try something equally as dangerous and was saved by pure luck... (I still didn't say "It's Impossible!")
_________________
Earned the following:
50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran
Treebore wrote:
Well, going by the OP's example the CK shouldn't be saying its impossible. He should be saying its a CL5, 10, or whatever. That way you get to see the difference between a 1 3 or an 18 and Prime/Non-Prime.
So he is basically shooting himself in the foot by using the word impossible to begin with.
Some things are just NOT possible. If the weight being lifted is exactly 1000 lbs, then noone can lift it! A CL check isn't going to convince me otherwise - unless the person has some magical enhancment to strenght or some spell that can lift 1000_ lbs.
If however the weight is 200 lbs, then by the book (2e as I follow) the 18 STR character can lift it but I would make it slightly difficult based on the fact that the rock is bulky. The 13 STR character with Prime can not lift it period! He is limited to 140 lbs. Try lifting 140 lbs - I know... I train and it aint easy! However... a 16 STR character may have a chance (his lift is 195) but I wouldn't allow a non prime 16 STR character to succeed. At this point it's a judgemtn call but the fact is I hate applying CL or D20 type skll checks to certain things such as lifting weights. If it's something more abstract, like wether or not they spot the trap door, then I'm OK at giving the CL/DC type check.
-
gideon_thorne
- Maukling
- Posts: 6176
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
Jynx wrote:
Some things are just NOT possible. If the weight being lifted is exactly 1000 lbs, then noone can lift it! A CL check isn't going to convince me otherwise - unless the person has some magical enhancment to strenght or some spell that can lift 1000_ lbs.
Possibly. But the original question centered around 'moving' the object in question not necessarily lifting it. Moving anything can be done with applied leverage.
One couldnt 'lift' a 20 foot tall statue either, but with the right leverage one could tip it over. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Some uses of ability scores, like, Strength, have logical extrapolations which do not need rolls to accomplish. In fact, Strength has a value associated with it (I believe 10 x STR = maximum weight) so, if the CK rules the object is more than that amount, it cannot be pushed without assistance. Period.
Now, the CK can also allow "pushing an attribute" in which case extraordinary things can be done, like a granny lifting a Suburban, but such occurances should be rare at best, and have effects nearly identical to that of the barbarian's primal fury... not to mention, its not just something you can invoke on a whim. I'd probably allow it, in life-threatening circumstances only, and have it last like 2-5 rounds or so.
There seems to be a very common use of Strength checks for the moving/lifting of objects. Why, I don't know as there is a rule for it.... Oh, wait, I do know. Its that crapy example of the guy lifting the statue. That should be removed, in my opinion. Its a great example of the SIEGE Engine being used for the wrong purpose, so maybe it should be left...
But, anyway, other uses for other attributes are things like Dexterity and speed. A PCs movement is obvious... but how fast does he accelerate? In other words, who'd beat the bullet in the Olympics? Well, that's impossible to tell, but Initiative would be a damn fine way to determine it, eh? Perhaps the only instance where Dex modifies it. Again, not a SIEGE resolution, and level should not be a factor (yeah, yeah, training is important, but all classes are equally "talented" at "running," except the monk who gets faster... so perhaps they always win? Of course, you could then create a class dedicated to such things, too.)
The SIEGE Engine is great, but its not supposed to be used all the time.
Now, the CK can also allow "pushing an attribute" in which case extraordinary things can be done, like a granny lifting a Suburban, but such occurances should be rare at best, and have effects nearly identical to that of the barbarian's primal fury... not to mention, its not just something you can invoke on a whim. I'd probably allow it, in life-threatening circumstances only, and have it last like 2-5 rounds or so.
There seems to be a very common use of Strength checks for the moving/lifting of objects. Why, I don't know as there is a rule for it.... Oh, wait, I do know. Its that crapy example of the guy lifting the statue. That should be removed, in my opinion. Its a great example of the SIEGE Engine being used for the wrong purpose, so maybe it should be left...
But, anyway, other uses for other attributes are things like Dexterity and speed. A PCs movement is obvious... but how fast does he accelerate? In other words, who'd beat the bullet in the Olympics? Well, that's impossible to tell, but Initiative would be a damn fine way to determine it, eh? Perhaps the only instance where Dex modifies it. Again, not a SIEGE resolution, and level should not be a factor (yeah, yeah, training is important, but all classes are equally "talented" at "running," except the monk who gets faster... so perhaps they always win? Of course, you could then create a class dedicated to such things, too.)
The SIEGE Engine is great, but its not supposed to be used all the time.
It's funny how tonight we had a case exactly like the example in the original poster...
The party fighter wanted to lift and move a large statue in hopes of tossing it down the pit while an evil tentaicle whipping creature was slowly climbing up the hole. At first I told him that it was too heavy and they wanted to roll te dice but I said no... it's simply impossible. I left it at that but he tried to lift it thus using up his turn. On the next turn the creature had stopped to attack another party member that had fallen in and was pinned againsts the wall. This gave the fighter one more chance and this time the player used his brain and placed himself against the wall and the statue. Using his feet and back plus the leverage he gained being pinned against the wall and statue, I gave it a CL of 'X' and he rolled higher thus sending the statue topling over into the pit and taking the creature with it.
There was a smaller stature that he would have been able to lift, but he choose the big round one - that of a beholder - and there was no way he would lift it.
Perfect example of when to use the siege engine and when not to. I'm glad I participated in this thread today as it came in usefull tonight!
The party fighter wanted to lift and move a large statue in hopes of tossing it down the pit while an evil tentaicle whipping creature was slowly climbing up the hole. At first I told him that it was too heavy and they wanted to roll te dice but I said no... it's simply impossible. I left it at that but he tried to lift it thus using up his turn. On the next turn the creature had stopped to attack another party member that had fallen in and was pinned againsts the wall. This gave the fighter one more chance and this time the player used his brain and placed himself against the wall and the statue. Using his feet and back plus the leverage he gained being pinned against the wall and statue, I gave it a CL of 'X' and he rolled higher thus sending the statue topling over into the pit and taking the creature with it.
There was a smaller stature that he would have been able to lift, but he choose the big round one - that of a beholder - and there was no way he would lift it.
Perfect example of when to use the siege engine and when not to. I'm glad I participated in this thread today as it came in usefull tonight!
Jynx wrote:
Some things are just NOT possible. If the weight being lifted is exactly 1000 lbs, then noone can lift it! A CL check isn't going to convince me otherwise - unless the person has some magical enhancment to strenght or some spell that can lift 1000_ lbs.
If however the weight is 200 lbs, then by the book (2e as I follow) the 18 STR character can lift it but I would make it slightly difficult based on the fact that the rock is bulky. The 13 STR character with Prime can not lift it period! He is limited to 140 lbs. Try lifting 140 lbs - I know... I train and it aint easy! However... a 16 STR character may have a chance (his lift is 195) but I wouldn't allow a non prime 16 STR character to succeed. At this point it's a judgemtn call but the fact is I hate applying CL or D20 type skll checks to certain things such as lifting weights. If it's something more abstract, like wether or not they spot the trap door, then I'm OK at giving the CL/DC type check.
In a fantasy game, especially if you have Archmages and High Priests casting 9th level spells, very, very few things are impossible. You get in the habit of saying impossible then the players say I cast spell "X" that ups my effective Strength to 23 for the next 5 minutes, can I move that 2,000 pound boulder now? Then your back tracking.
So just get in the habit of giving a high CL. Preferably keeping in mind what CL would have to be beaten in case they ever do get strong enough, fast enough, etc... to do it.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Treebore wrote:
In a fantasy game, especially if you have Archmages and High Priests casting 9th level spells, very, very few things are impossible. You get in the habit of saying impossible then the players say I cast spell "X" that ups my effective Strength to 23 for the next 5 minutes, can I move that 2,000 pound boulder now? Then your back tracking.
So just get in the habit of giving a high CL. Preferably keeping in mind what CL would have to be beaten in case they ever do get strong enough, fast enough, etc... to do it.
My point is that it's basically impossible 'without extra help'. Of course - as I've said earlier - the use of other magical means will improve it from impossible to possibel. It's only then that I will assign a CL. There is no backtracking, just a change in what is not possible. In my scenerio last night, it was not possible for brute strenght to pick up the statue thus I didn't waste a moment to think up a CL but I let them roll nonetheless. To me it was impossible and to the players once they rolled I told them it was impossible. Using the wall and the feet to push the stature wasn't impossible so I immediately assigned a CL.