Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

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paladinn
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Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by paladinn »

One of the things I love about C&C is the way certain concepts are streamlined and simplified. Class abilities, for example, all add one's level to any checks. This in my mind is much better/simpler/quicker than the percentage system from OD&D, AD&D and BXECMI, and even better than the skills system from 3e.

That said, one of the things I appreciated about 2e was the ability to distribute the percentages among the thief skills as one leveled-up. That way, if someone wanted to be Spider-Man and climb anywhere, s/he could. If s/he didn't care about picking locks, it wasn't required. Flexibility is good.

Let's say rogues get "expertise" or "skill specialization" at L5 and 10 (and maybe 15). You add a +1 to two rogue class abilities. This could allow a little flexibility in a class that, honestly, makes all such characters virtually identical.

Thoughts?

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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by serleran »

Another option is to allow the player to decide whether Dexterity or Intelligence governs the attribute check, as you may have a character that is better than the other. This is even more relevant for races that gain only two Primes.

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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Ancalagon »

paladinn wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:48 pm
One of the things I love about C&C is the way certain concepts are streamlined and simplified. Class abilities, for example, all add one's level to any checks. This in my mind is much better/simpler/quicker than the percentage system from OD&D, AD&D and BXECMI, and even better than the skills system from 3e.

That said, one of the things I appreciated about 2e was the ability to distribute the percentages among the thief skills as one leveled-up. That way, if someone wanted to be Spider-Man and climb anywhere, s/he could. If s/he didn't care about picking locks, it wasn't required. Flexibility is good.

Let's say rogues get "expertise" or "skill specialization" at L5 and 10 (and maybe 15). You add a +1 to two rogue class abilities. This could allow a little flexibility in a class that, honestly, makes all such characters virtually identical.

Thoughts?
If a rogue wants to spend the extra time developing particular skills then other skills will not receive as much time for development. I could see allowing a rogue to get a +1 to two class abilities as long as they took a -1 to two other class abilities.
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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Ancalagon »

serleran wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:22 pm
Another option is to allow the player to decide whether Dexterity or Intelligence governs the attribute check, as you may have a character that is better than the other. This is even more relevant for races that gain only two Primes.
Emphasis mine.
Those races should be human. ;) :)
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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Fizz »

paladinn wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:48 pm
One of the things I love about C&C is the way certain concepts are streamlined and simplified. Class abilities, for example, all add one's level to any checks. This in my mind is much better/simpler/quicker than the percentage system from OD&D, AD&D and BXECMI, and even better than the skills system from 3e.

That said, one of the things I appreciated about 2e was the ability to distribute the percentages among the thief skills as one leveled-up. That way, if someone wanted to be Spider-Man and climb anywhere, s/he could. If s/he didn't care about picking locks, it wasn't required. Flexibility is good.

Let's say rogues get "expertise" or "skill specialization" at L5 and 10 (and maybe 15). You add a +1 to two rogue class abilities. This could allow a little flexibility in a class that, honestly, makes all such characters virtually identical.

Thoughts?
I liked 2nd Ed's version handled thief skills as well. Your system will work- it's a subtle tweak that gives a bit of uniqueness.

I actually follow 2nd Ed's lead. There are what... 8? rogue thief abilties that require an ability check. So i let the character have 8 arbritary "pluses" each level that he can distribute as he wants. The maximum that can be added to any single skill per level is 3. Further, if a user hasn't used a particular ability during the last level, no points may be added to it. This works for other classes as well.

-Fizz

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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by paladinn »

Fizz wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:57 am
paladinn wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:48 pm
One of the things I love about C&C is the way certain concepts are streamlined and simplified. Class abilities, for example, all add one's level to any checks. This in my mind is much better/simpler/quicker than the percentage system from OD&D, AD&D and BXECMI, and even better than the skills system from 3e.

That said, one of the things I appreciated about 2e was the ability to distribute the percentages among the thief skills as one leveled-up. That way, if someone wanted to be Spider-Man and climb anywhere, s/he could. If s/he didn't care about picking locks, it wasn't required. Flexibility is good.

Let's say rogues get "expertise" or "skill specialization" at L5 and 10 (and maybe 15). You add a +1 to two rogue class abilities. This could allow a little flexibility in a class that, honestly, makes all such characters virtually identical.

Thoughts?
I liked 2nd Ed's version handled thief skills as well. Your system will work- it's a subtle tweak that gives a bit of uniqueness.

I actually follow 2nd Ed's lead. There are what... 8? rogue thief abilties that require an ability check. So i let the character have 8 arbritary "pluses" each level that he can distribute as he wants. The maximum that can be added to any single skill per level is 3. Further, if a user hasn't used a particular ability during the last level, no points may be added to it. This works for other classes as well.

-Fizz
Do you do this instead of the usual class ability bonus, or in addition? Wouldn't these abilities typically add the rogue's level?

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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Fizz »

paladinn wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:24 am
Do you do this instead of the usual class ability bonus, or in addition? Wouldn't these abilities typically add the rogue's level?
In my implementation, this replaces the standard level bonus. If no points are added to an ability, then those ability checks are made at +0, regardless of level. (The effect of primes is still unchanged, however.)

-Fizz

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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by serleran »

One other thing I thought is similar to what I mentioned before (choose Dex or Int) but then, for each positive point, you can select one skill and gain a +2 bonus to it.

So, if you had a Dexterity of 18 (+3), you can choose 3 skills and get +2 on each.

In general, I dislike encouraging double stacking high attributes but with attribute requirements gone, it gives them a little something else to do.

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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Captain_K »

cool idea on the thief, focus on the skill you like, fit your description, and likely use, you get better at what you use.
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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by paladinn »

So here's what I'm thinking so far.. Rogues btb have the following class abilities that came from the D&D Thief class: Climb, Decipher, Hide, Listen, Silence, Open Lock, Pick Pocket and Traps. The Adventurer's Backpack adds Escape for "Thieves." In BECMI, the Rake, a variant of the thief that doesn't steal or backstab, also gets a Dodge ability. Class abilities are supposed to add one's level to any rolls. So that means for each level, we're looking at a total of +8, 9 or 10 bonuses. So let's say that at L1, a rogue/thief has to take a +1 in every ability. Each level-up, the player gets to allocate his/her +8-10 as wished. One could put up to +3 in one ability. No ability can ever go above +19. So rogues/thieves start and end a career with the same bonuses across the board; but in between, there's a lot of opportunity for flexibility.

Option 2 would be to keep the class ability bonuses as btb; but every 5 levels or so, give an "expertise" bonus to one or two chosen abilities.

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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Fizz »

paladinn wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:39 pm
So let's say that at L1, a rogue/thief has to take a +1 in every ability. Each level-up, the player gets to allocate his/her +8-10 as wished. One could put up to +3 in one ability. No ability can ever go above +19. So rogues/thieves start and end a career with the same bonuses across the board; but in between, there's a lot of opportunity for flexibility.
This is similar to what i do, except i let them take up to +3 at first level as well, and i don't have a limit of +19 (just no more than +3 per level). I don't mind having low/high-level specialists. But if you're worried about bonuses being too high at the upper levels, this would work just fine.

-Fizz

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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Captain_K »

Personally, the assassin should get better backstab damage than the thief. The CON save means everybody higher level gets a save and usually makes it. Or the CON save and the damage. Save and die, make the save take this damage.
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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Grandpa »

Captain_K wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 1:04 pm
Personally, the assassin should get better backstab damage than the thief. The CON save means everybody higher level gets a save and usually makes it. Or the CON save and the damage. Save and die, make the save take this damage.
The Con save has to be against the Assassin's level. Thus being higher level is neutralized if the Assassin is similar level....

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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Go0gleplex »

Why? The Assassin already has a Death Attack that is an insta-kill if conditions are met. If you're talking due to more knowledge of how to kill someone as a justification then it should only be against humans and maybe demi-humans. Not all anatomy is the same after all, particularly when deviating from the human base. So a plus to damage with a minus to what can be affected to keep it balanced, to use an over-used term.
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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Captain_K »

No my point is its all or nothing, which ends up being nothing most times as you must wait 3 rounds then make the attack. The opponent is likely CON prime and equal to or higher level than the assassin. Thus you do very little damage. The thief just does damage, no race or anatomy lessons needed. Same basic "ability" but two different mechanics. My thought would be something more along the lines of the assassin just does more back stab style damage than the thief and if that kills, then there is the kill no more CON save, they hit after all so save is not required.

I have not done the math, but comparing class abilities, the thief can do it more often or faster and always does damage. thus I think the thief has the better ability and the assassin's is highly limited.
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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Grandpa »

Captain_K wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:56 pm
The opponent is likely CON prime and equal to or higher level than the assassin.
No, it completely depends on who is running the game. It is as likely or unlikely as the GM makes it.

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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Captain_K »

I do not disagree it depends on what you're fighting but a party with an assassin get bored having the assassin always out front getting 3 rounds before the party attacks or the assassin waits 3 rounds then tries to attack and you normally only do this kind of thing on a major adversary or sometimes the guard you are trying to get by quietly or some such. But in equal circumstances the thief back stab vs the assassin kill are roughly the same, one is every round vs three rounds, the out come is multiple damage vs death or normal damage. You can much more depend on the thief doing more than the assassin, Again in equal settings.
Back when the assassin went away, we kept it by adding some skills and allowing a backstab 1x to be purchased with ability % points taking away from the other thief abilities to get more back stab. Basically a thief that "specialized" or got good at back stab.
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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Go0gleplex »

IMO the Assassin should have remained an NPC class. It's one of the few classes I don't allow in my games since there really is no good reason for them to be adventurers. So that particular aspect of things doesn't occur...add that I also do not allow evil alignments to be ran since they are inherently disruptive should the players actually play their alignment and not just use it as murder hobo justification and no evil party would survive together for long before they self destructed.

The way the assassin death attack works is there to mitigate the insta-kill since to not do so would make the class a bit too effective otherwise.
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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Fizz »

I have mixed feelings about the assassin. On one hand, it has a lot in common with the thief. On the other, it does have a couple nifty unique abilities. If you think of the class akin to James Bond, then it makes sense as an adventurer.

While fighting classes slog it out against large number of foes, the assassin is the precision weapon; the fantasy equivalent of a laser-guided bomb. They are meant to hit a specific target once, and kill it outright without collateral damage. Is there a place for such a concept? Sure, but does it belong to a single class?

And should a class be so defined by such a singular purpose? I'd lean towards no, but fortunately the other sneaking skills and Case Target help expand the class's usefulness beyond killing. I've also wondered if the assassin should also have the Track ability, then it could also take on the role of bounty hunter, though i'm hesitant about stepping into the ranger's domain.


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Re: Rogues/Thieves Class abilities

Post by Captain_K »

the Royal Assassin by Robin Hobb. to me killing is killing, dead is dead rather you are slaughtered by a fighter's sword, a mage's magic missiles, a cleric's holy fire, or an assassin/thief backstab with poison. Each class does their thing, helps the parts, some have other skills.
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