What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

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greenbadge
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What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by greenbadge »

These are my observations when players who are use to current RPG trends try C&C and a dungeon crawl. Just for the record I like both C&C and 5e
Two years ago, I invited some members of my gaming group to try a “Old School Dungeon Crawl”. We finished the game over the weekend. This is what I observed about our game and habits of today’s gamers and my DM style.
Background
The players: 1 of the players have been playing since D&D 3.5, 2 players have been playing since AD&D 2nd edition and 1 player started with Castles and Crusades and has moved on to 5e
DM: Started gaming with the Dungeons & Dragons—Holmes Basic and have been playing on and off since then. But for the last 5 years DM and playing 5e or Pathfinder.
Modules: My original plan was to take the players through T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil (1e).
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17 ... al-Evil-1e
And here is the first place I learn of one of my faults, hubris. I really didn’t grasp how big this Mega dungeon was. So half way through the moat house I called an audible and moved the story to the Mines of Mayhem.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/25 ... -of-Mayhem
Setup: Setting up a 5e game on Roll20 https://roll20.net/ is relatively easy. It’s a little more work to setup a C&C game. The biggest snag was not having a C&C character sheet in Roll20. (This has been corrected) The players were very use to having a digital character sheet. My second bad habit, sloth. I to as a DM also have gotten to use to online tools and more then once I had to scramble to cover up for my crutch being removed.
Rules and Gameplay
Healing: In our campaign the number one C&C rule that the players did not like was the resting rule. Which is no surprise to anyone I would think. To go from I am almost dead to fully rested and recharge after a goods night rest is a boon to the players. But to have to think about where and when you need to rest is a big change in how you play the game. More then once the party had to leave the field of battle and retreat to a safe location to rest.
Prime and non-prime skills: This is the one area where I give the most leeway to the players. I started with tell me what are you trying to do and I will make a ruling on what stat we will use. But this caused the game to slow to a crawl so I started to use a more 5e system to help move the game along. This is one of my biggest pet peeves with gaming, slowing the game to a crawl to discuss rules. So, I made a decision to make checks more like 5e to keep the gaming moving along.
Combat: The players really didn’t provide any feedback on combat one way or the other. But as a DM I love C&C combat over 5e. Move or ½ move and attack. Roll one dice hit or miss. Hit then roll for damage.
Spells: The players liked 5e over C&C. No surprise here. 5e spell system gives the players a lot of spells and different options on how to use them. As DM I dislike the spells in both systems. When ever magic is brought into play the game drags to halt as we have to discuss all the nuisances. (Pet peeve, see above)
Outcome
We finally finished the campaign on Friday. So, After the game was over the players were in agreement that they wanted to continue to play and explore the game world (Thanks Starry Knight Press ) They wanted to convert their characters to 5e and use 5e.
Not really a surprise to me, but I was a little disappointment. But to their credit they stuck with it for 2 years and gave C&C a real chance but in the end, it was not to be.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by Go0gleplex »

5e pretty much caters to the 'want it now without having to put effort into thinking' generations to ensure a player base and sales. So not overly surprised with your outcome there. You could also call it the vidiot-game mentality since that is what a lot of people equate gaming to. It's one of the big reasons I've almost stopped running RPG games; the players just aren't up to challenging me as a GM anymore and I have zero fun having to spoon-feed them along and hold their hands as it were because they simply won't engage their brains. Yeah...sounds bitter and condescending, but it's what I've had to deal with in the region I'm at and the only thing I have to relate to. (shrug) Considering WotC HQ is just a few hours away (and less impressive than it was when it first opened in the 90's) it's kind of a sad reflection. But if you and your crew are all havin' fun, really all that matters in the end.
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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by paladinn »

Go0gleplex wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 5:50 pm
5e pretty much caters to the 'want it now without having to put effort into thinking' generations to ensure a player base and sales. So not overly surprised with your outcome there. You could also call it the vidiot-game mentality since that is what a lot of people equate gaming to. It's one of the big reasons I've almost stopped running RPG games; the players just aren't up to challenging me as a GM anymore and I have zero fun having to spoon-feed them along and hold their hands as it were because they simply won't engage their brains. Yeah...sounds bitter and condescending, but it's what I've had to deal with in the region I'm at and the only thing I have to relate to. (shrug) Considering WotC HQ is just a few hours away (and less impressive than it was when it first opened in the 90's) it's kind of a sad reflection. But if you and your crew are all havin' fun, really all that matters in the end.
I've played and DM'ed both. 5e and C&C have a lot in common in core mechanics. I would say the proficiency mechanic was adapted from the Siege Engine. But at the same time, 5e is a lot easier to power-game, which of course is what so many players want today. I usually drop the 5e magic system into C&C and run with it. It works.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by Grandpa »

I had the same result when GMing children. High power and safety. Which was of course the design goal of 5E. D&D in name only.

But it wouldn't matter if I were running 5E. IT would be hard and fast. No milk and cookies uninterrupted nap time to regain powers if the monsters wouldn't allow it. Monsters would follow the same damage rules and be played with as much smarts as their intelligence and experience allows. That would wipe out 90% of the players I see today as they don't ever think. They play it like a video game where "monsters" aren't run intelligently.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by Ancalagon »

Grandpa wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 12:26 pm
I had the same result when GMing children. High power and safety. Which was of course the design goal of 5E. D&D in name only.

But it wouldn't matter if I were running 5E. IT would be hard and fast. No milk and cookies uninterrupted nap time to regain powers if the monsters wouldn't allow it. Monsters would follow the same damage rules and be played with as much smarts as their intelligence and experience allows. That would wipe out 90% of the players I see today as they don't ever think. They play it like a video game where "monsters" aren't run intelligently.
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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by maximus »

The results are not a surprise. I like C&C because it has the feel of AD&D with some improved mechanics. Is it perfect? No, but it's a damn sight better than 5E.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by paladinn »

maximus wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:57 pm
The results are not a surprise. I like C&C because it has the feel of AD&D with some improved mechanics. Is it perfect? No, but it's a damn sight better than 5E.
It's interesting.. I think someone who's played 5e would have an easier time picking up C&C than, say, 3e.

There are number of common concepts between C&C and 5e: attribute-based saves, the proficiency bonus mechanic, etc. But then, guess where WotC got them from :)

C&C has been touted as a better 3e than 3e. I guess it's also a better 5e than 5e!

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by maximus »

paladinn wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 6:53 pm
maximus wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:57 pm
The results are not a surprise. I like C&C because it has the feel of AD&D with some improved mechanics. Is it perfect? No, but it's a damn sight better than 5E.
It's interesting.. I think someone who's played 5e would have an easier time picking up C&C than, say, 3e.

There are number of common concepts between C&C and 5e: attribute-based saves, the proficiency bonus mechanic, etc. But then, guess where WotC got them from :)

C&C has been touted as a better 3e than 3e. I guess it's also a better 5e than 5e!
I bought the core 3E books, but never played it. Way too crunchy for me.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by paladinn »

It is really crunchy. Pathfinder is the same, only much worse.

But still, C&C got a lot of it's mechanics from 3e. I just like how they've been streamlined

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by Go0gleplex »

Ummm....Pally...NO! C&C was around long before 3e was even conceptualized. It took nothing from 3e mechanic-wise; if anything it borrowed a few concepts from 2e. I think you're misinterpreting stuff said like "C&C is what 3e should've been" or similar comments.
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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by Kayolan »

Go0gleplex wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 8:08 pm
Ummm....Pally...NO! C&C was around long before 3e was even conceptualized. It took nothing from 3e mechanic-wise; if anything it borrowed a few concepts from 2e. I think you're misinterpreting stuff said like "C&C is what 3e should've been" or similar comments.
Really? I could have sworn C&C was created in 2003/2004.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by Go0gleplex »

Hmmm...maybe so. But I remember ads for it back in '98/99. Or at least something that looked remarkably similar to the Winter Dark stuff.
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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by paladinn »

Go0gleplex wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 8:35 pm
Hmmm...maybe so. But I remember ads for it back in '98/99. Or at least something that looked remarkably similar to the Winter Dark stuff.

C&C first was published in 2004. D20/3e came out in 2000. There are a lot of mechanics that debuted in 3e that had never been used before. C&C inherited quite a few.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by Rigon »

Go0gleplex wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 8:35 pm
Hmmm...maybe so. But I remember ads for it back in '98/99. Or at least something that looked remarkably similar to the Winter Dark stuff.
That's because the Winter Dark stuff came out originally as stand alone (or generic system) stuff. The first 3 printed things from TLG were The After Winter's Dark (blue booklet with red dragon on the cover), The Fantastic Adventure and Mortality of Green modules. That was right around or just before the time 3e released. I know the modules were converted to 3.0 and the Trolls released the first version of The Codex of Erde in the 3.0 era, before the 1st print C&C players handbook released.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by Go0gleplex »

And that would explain it. lol Thanks Rigon. Nice to know I'm not TOTALLY senile yet in my senior years. ;) LOL
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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

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I would assume the Trolls were playing in their world with their rules long before 3.X became public. Both were likely insulated from each other.

Co-credit for very common things coming out at about the same time similarly invented by two independent groups or authors is not unheard of / impossible. Like the Coffin-Manson line for low cycle fatigue during the creation of the first jet engines... oops wrong group, but a great example any way.

By the way, love the new look Plex... what is the story behind that?
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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by Go0gleplex »

One of my character portraits I drew a few years ago - Gnome Illusionist/Thief named Fizzwiggle the Fox. Game didn't last long unfortunately. :(
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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

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Captain_K wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:34 pm
I would assume the Trolls were playing in their world with their rules long before 3.X became public. Both were likely insulated from each other.
Well, when you look at them, how much of core mechanics do 3 & C&C share (other than licensed monster & magic) that BOTH didn't take from 1st & 2nd?

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by paladinn »

Grandpa wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:30 pm
Captain_K wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:34 pm
I would assume the Trolls were playing in their world with their rules long before 3.X became public. Both were likely insulated from each other.
Well, when you look at them, how much of core mechanics do 3 & C&C share (other than licensed monster & magic) that BOTH didn't take from 1st & 2nd?
Ascending AC
Roll-high mechanics.
Probably a few more, but those come to mind.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

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paladinn wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:40 pm
Ascending AC
Roll-high mechanics.
Probably a few more, but those come to mind.
Right very little. My 2nd Ed group had already switched to Ascending AC and High roll by '94 as house rules.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by paladinn »

Grandpa wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 3:06 pm
paladinn wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:40 pm
Ascending AC
Roll-high mechanics.
Probably a few more, but those come to mind.
Right very little. My 2nd Ed group had already switched to Ascending AC and High roll by '94 as house rules.
"Very little", but very much central to the system. And it they are baked-in, you don't have to do the work of converting stuff.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

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Captain_K wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:34 pm
I would assume the Trolls were playing in their world with their rules long before 3.X became public. Both were likely insulated from each other.
My understanding is C&C wasn't created until the OGL was released. I believe the Trolls were still running 1E in their home games at that point. The SIEGE engine was created with the OGL in place.
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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

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paladinn wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:53 pm
Grandpa wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 3:06 pm
paladinn wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:40 pm
Ascending AC
Roll-high mechanics.
Probably a few more, but those come to mind.
Right very little. My 2nd Ed group had already switched to Ascending AC and High roll by '94 as house rules.
"Very little", but very much central to the system. And it they are baked-in, you don't have to do the work of converting stuff.
Exactly. Which is why our house rules were made like that. It was an obvious and logical next step to removing friction from play. We weren't game designers by ANY stretch. That's how I know it was an obvious direction to go.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

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Buttmonkey wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:09 am
My understanding is C&C wasn't created until the OGL was released. I believe the Trolls were still running 1E in their home games at that point. The SIEGE engine was created with the OGL in place.
There were too many I.P. rights hurdles to leap in order to publish such a game before the OGL existed.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by finarvyn »

Buttmonkey wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:09 am
Captain_K wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:34 pm
I would assume the Trolls were playing in their world with their rules long before 3.X became public. Both were likely insulated from each other.
My understanding is C&C wasn't created until the OGL was released. I believe the Trolls were still running 1E in their home games at that point. The SIEGE engine was created with the OGL in place.
I was a playtester for C&C. This is correct. The OGL gave companies license to try their hand at publishing D&D-like games and the Troll Lords were one of the first to hop onto that train.
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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by jdizzy001 »

Not sure what level your folks were playing at but regarding prime vs non prime rolls, I usually use the CB of 12/18 only. I don’t create a CL.

As for making checks which slows the game down. I wasn’t there so I don’t know but the c&c design philosophy is “just say yes. And move on.” If your ranger wants to track a goblin who is evading pursuit, don’t bother wasting time to discuss which ability score he should roll to make that happen. If the chance of failure is low and the action the PC wants to take falls within the realm of something a PC can reasonably do (like rogues picking locks) just say yes and move on. C&C shouldn’t be slowed down over an ability check.
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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

Post by paladinn »

I just use a target of 15 for most everything. Primes add +3. Simple and not very swingy.

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

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Thanks for the detail, the two year experiment, and the attempt.

Its a game folks let them play how they want. I like beer, kind of sick of IPAs. Does not mean IPA drinkers are not beer drinkers. Sours, come on, bring back session beers...

we sound like grumpy old men.. oh wait, I think we might be.

Have been missing for a while. Had one of our 1982 original players die this year. Playing his PCs in tribute and reading all the Corum books to get background flavor.

Life is short folks, play, have fun, encourage the game. I have tried to get my son and his friends to play, almost got a group started, but a group of 8 and competing with life, golf, video games, its hard, slow is hard. But be patient, there are great young minds out there. I'm in two groups with 30 somethings and some really think and are brilliant as hell. some are just lazy, that is life.

How about a pick up CnC game over web for all us old timers? I'd run it. Let me know if you're interested in old time, dangerous, and think based.
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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

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Welcome back! I'm in! :)

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Re: What happens when 5e players try Castles and Crusades.

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Greenbadge, If you're still out there, welcome, hope you still find this site helpful.

With all the views of how to play and strong opinions of history and right and wrong, playing with this group could be great fun or a crushing disaster, but I'd like to give it a try, at least once.
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