Your Favorite C&C

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Captain_K
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

Post by Captain_K »

So bringing a natural bear to its death by a druid is aok but animating an evil monster after you kill it to kill its other evil friends is bad?
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

Post by Go0gleplex »

Re-read what I wrote Cap. lol
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

Post by Captain_K »

I just read it again, you lumped ALL animals and monsters in as no one cares about "cannon fodder". But all humans should not be desecrated especially by the gods of death. Yet Odin had runes to speak with the dead. The highest god, doing necromancy. You good sir, have a very solid and obvious preference of what is good and evil.

Personally, sending wildlife to their very likely death by a druid, the basis of animal friend and summon animal, is the worst of evil acts. Taking innocent animals or "monsters" to kill one human by another human over one human who slaughters other humans by sword then gets a few of his enemies to stand and keep slaughtering enemies. It's all killing. As a biology guy, every animal, every living monster, every human, dwarf, bugbear, etc. are all animals and all have gods, all have souls (if you want) and all are "equal" thus kill them, charm them, enslave them, raise them, animate their dead or just chat with a skull, it's all the same to me (an act of power of one over one who cannot stop it from happening). I can bash their heads in while they're alive or as is typical of war, rape and steal, as rights of the winner/war, and those acts all carry their own level of good and evil. I do not see any difference between raising the dead, resurrection, heal, animate dead, speak with dead which are all part of the powers of life and death over "life" and is a major cleric sphere and to not permit it is like saying all wizard spells are dark and evil and you will be stoned by villagers if you call lightening.

If ten villagers are dead and left to rot in the street, I can animate them all, march them solemnly to the local graveyard, dig with them their graves, say prayers, lay them to rest and bury them with a blessing. A priest of the dead could easily in a fantasy world do this as a lawful and good act. May turn your stomach but I think that is your personal ethics.

It's a game like life with good and evil, two sides of the same two headed coin, its usually all in the view of the beholder.
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

Post by Go0gleplex »

Well...I'm not sure how the animal friendship works these days, but back when, the animal would not fight to the death and if sent to do so, the friendship would be subject to a die roll with a high chance of being broken. Summon animal...well...same thing kinda depending on the setting. Ours the animals were more like the anime summons...showing up in a magical circle or what and dissipating into light particles when killed...so not really 'real' animals so much as magical constructs based on real animals per se. If you want to talk about souls, Shinto considers all things to have a soul, hence the tsukumogami, items that after use and care of so many years gaining sentience and ability to take human form and that the destruction or failure to care for all things would result in divine retribution or formation of a cursed spirit/yokai, this includes beasts, other people, etc. that appear throughout Japanese folklore such as the bakeneko, goryo, Hoji, or the Konaki-jiji as some examples.

And yup. I DO have a very solid definition of good and evil. First hand experience as it were (my history reads like a very very dark chapter of the twilight zone...I wouldn't believe half of it myself if I hadn't survived it so far). Odin is more of a specific pantheon since as the Hel wasn't really in any position to make an issue of things with him. lol And the citation I made on that front was how our particular game group of 30+ people (and all four of us DMs) ran things...not necessarily a requirement for others and was simply an example of how it could influence a campaign or be used for brain fodder for the DM.

Raise Dead and Resurrection would be miracles to the common folk...and also subject to a violation of the realms of the dead; hence why some pantheons have death gods and healing/life gods at odds with each other. Me...personally...I only have a Pantheon of Three...Good, Evil, and Nature (Neutrality)...such spells would fall to Nature and be seen as a breaching of the cycle of life though not necessarily assigned penalties unless doing so was in order to further breach or even break said cycle. But again, that's my world. There's actually an anime/manga where the cycle is broken by the Gods causing all sorts of issues and the near destruction of the world...and the Paladin who swears himself to the Goddess responsible for maintaining the cycle which he is struggling to repair...and as a result puts himself at odds with the God of Undead (after killing said god's remnant avatar) which brings up several interesting viewpoints on the subject. Speak with Dead would be less likely to raise eyebrows...due to being seen as more shamanic in nature and also less likely to incur the ire of a death god due to not really robbing them of a soul. Again though, it goes back to how the pantheon itself is set up and all that. If using the Greek Pantheon for instance...Hades would be all OVER your arse and the Erynies (Furies) deployed to ensure you KNEW you'd crossed a line...whereas the Japanese pantheon would be far less reactive as long as the entrance to Yomi remains sealed...the Mayan death gods would also not be very happy with violators of their domain though beyond marking said violators as enemies to be dealt with as encountered would probably plan the most humiliating and terrifying reincarnation for their underworld hunts as they could possibly subject the violators to once the died and their souls passed into their realms. If a pantheon of the DMs creation, then it all becomes up for grabs with no real set determination or precedence to worry about.

Besides...I was speaking to general populace psychology and sociology based on my fairly good grasp of such and many discussions with a professional in the field of study back in the 80's and 90's...and the death god stuff based on popular fiction from the 60s-90s. You have to remember, people tend to fear and hate that which is abnormal and against the gestalt's common sense...that which is different from themselves or their society. While the act of walking the dead bodies to their graves may be based in good intentions the community is not highly unlikely to see things that way...unless such was a very common place event (which would be indicative of something else that was VERY twisted in the community). This whole topic is simply one where I am bringing up potential ramifications to the spell which someone else opened the door to.
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

Post by maximus »

serleran wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:33 pm
Monster - goblin. If using extraneous material, the boggle or nilbog. The former because they can be reskinned in any way imaginable. I personally use them as technicians so they're more like "stereotype gnomes" from an ancient tech world. They fear magic. The other two because they are great shockers... nilbogs can be quite fun though they have to be used sparingly and carefully.

Magic item - wand of wonders. I prefer random to predictable, overall.

Spell - depends on the DM, actually, but anything with an effect similar to wish, limited wish, alter reality, dream, miracle... etc. Those "do everything and it is real" type things.
Love Goblins. I use a Tolkienesque system for goblins/hobgoblins. Never used either boggles or nilbogs

My son's Wizard has a Wand of Wonder with a few charges left in it. He's had some interesting results come up!

Haven't playing a campaign high enough to use those spells in years. I do recall the wording on a Wish causing unintended consequences though. Have to be careful with these.

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Re: Your Favorite C&C

Post by Persimmon »

Been thinking about this for a few days so here goes:

Monster: Devils & demons have long been my favorites, ever since the "Paladin in Hell" image from the 1e PHB. I'd probably go with the marilith because it reminds me of one of the monsters in those old claymation Sinbad movies. It was either "7th Voyage of Sinbad" or "Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger."

Magic Item: Wand of Wonder (Like others; I love the randomness. Do you get the lightning bolt or the stream of butterflies?)
Honorable mention: Vorpal blades; these are even more fun now that I have a random hit location die to determine which extremity goes.

Spell: Mirror Image--This spell has bailed out parties on more than one occasion. Most memorably, I played a gnome Illusionist/Thief who was the only arcane caster in a high level party. He repeatedly kicked ass with his mirror image spell, darting in and out of combat to allow the tanks to do their thing.
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

Post by maximus »

Good stuff Persimmon.

I agree 100% on demons and devils. I didn't put these down as my favorite because they technically don't exist in C&C (the Unclean abomination has been almost forgotten...). I always felt they were underpowered in AD&D, but loved the ideas and potential. That picture from the PHB is one of my favorites as well.

Mirror Image is a great spell and almost necessary for lower level Magic Users.

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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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It was the 7th Voyage of Sinbad Pers. The princess' hand maiden got shape-changed by evil wizard dude.
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

Post by Persimmon »

I also love the bulette and the rust monster because they were based on those cheesy 1970s Hong Kong "dinosaur" toys that I also owned (and still do) as a kid.
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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Very well-reasoned. much to think about.
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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Persimmon wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:29 pm
I also love the bulette and the rust monster because they were based on those cheesy 1970s Hong Kong "dinosaur" toys that I also owned (and still do) as a kid.
In the early 70's I found a bulette plastic toy 2"-3" long in a field. Thought it was a one off from some creepy crawler mold at the time.

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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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Monster .... I'll cheat and say "goblinkin" I know strictly speaking they aren't one monster, but all together they are varied and used correctly they can be a chalange for low to mid level parties (I never play or run a game to high level). Kobalds are nasty little tricky buggers, goblins are a swarm of dirty fighters that are as likely to throw mud into the face of the fighter or sneak around and hop on the mage's back as they are to try and dog pile then poke the front line guys with a sharp stick or rusty short sword, Orcs are vicious and can take some damage, hobgoblins are likely to have a swarm of lowly goblins with them beaten into submission (and used as cannon fodder) and use better tactics.

I do run a more Tolkinesk game and I do play all monsters with some intelligence, so the goblinkin may be different in most games/modules, but if ran like I run them they can be fun.

Magic Item .... toss up, Handy Haversack & Ring of Blinking for out of the book items. That said, I and other DMs in Monday Night Ne'er-do-wells like to let magic items and weapons grow with the character so I have had some great weapons etc from the games that aren't by the book - Lupa's Dardo a masterwork sword that eventually was magic +2 and had some cool extra effects ; Max's ranger with a giant slaying sword that also had spell effects (I think pass wo trace, entangle and maybe a few other)

Spell ... hands down Sound Burst.

Great ideas on all the other posts

I do love Dragons, at least 2e & C&C versions 1e they were WAY to nerfed. If I play goblins as clever and devious just think how dragons in my world are ! I will say I have always like the idea of a good NPC gold or silver dragon using their powers to hide in plain sight, but I have actually never ran a game with that in it.

Demons and Devils .... Oh I love those and use them as often as possible (again not the more nerfed versions). They are twisted and sinsister, and play the long game. I can't remember where I read about one (it was a 3e/3.5e book I think) that had a succubus type devil but they would actually 'care' for their mortal mate and not harm them but they would twist and miniplate those around their mate. I had one married to the duke and she quietly manipulated the group into killing all the demons and devils that were in her area (so she had free reign) and used the group and others to ruin her husband's rivals in the area and at the King's court. I gave hints in the campaign, but the guy playing the (paladin or caviler I can't remember which) never put it together. Then on the last scene of the last game I let him glimpse her as a temptress devil that she was as her and her husband left, and then replayed all the ways he helped her get her husband into the position of power at the king's side ... Oh the look on his face was sweeeeeet !
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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Oh I forgot about Imps ... I love imps always have, and in the on again off again Monday night Masque of Red Death AA game, I have used them extensively !

I think it is to the point that the groups Demon Hunter is on the verge of paranoia regarding them.

Chameleon like, (I added the basic invisibility spell to their powers) poisonous stinger tail mischievous and used as spies, look outs massagers and the like. What more could a GM want !

Need something to sneak into the wedding party and poison the bride by dripping death from their tail and going undetected, send an imp. need something to spy on the party while they talk about what they found out about the evil cabal and then go to sleep, send an imp, need ... wellll I can't say any more because we haven't gotten there yet !
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

Post by serleran »

Oh, and another type of creature which, to me, are quite fun - mephits.

They're basically demonic elementals.

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Re: Your Favorite C&C

Post by Persimmon »

serleran wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:11 pm
Oh, and another type of creature which, to me, are quite fun - mephits.

They're basically demonic elementals.
I seem to recall one RPG, maybe Hackmaster, where the mephits are always smoking nasty cigars.
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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serleran wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:11 pm
Oh, and another type of creature which, to me, are quite fun - mephits.

They're basically demonic elementals.
Totally forgot about mephits. I always pictured them as mischievous, but evil troublemakers. I may need to work some into my current campaign.

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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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Lurker wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:58 pm
Oh I forgot about Imps ... I love imps always have, and in the on again off again Monday night Masque of Red Death AA game, I have used them extensively !

I think it is to the point that the groups Demon Hunter is on the verge of paranoia regarding them.

Chameleon like, (I added the basic invisibility spell to their powers) poisonous stinger tail mischievous and used as spies, look outs massagers and the like. What more could a GM want !

Need something to sneak into the wedding party and poison the bride by dripping death from their tail and going undetected, send an imp. need something to spy on the party while they talk about what they found out about the evil cabal and then go to sleep, send an imp, need ... wellll I can't say any more because we haven't gotten there yet !
Yea... your imps. Not a fan. And by not a fan, I mean they are a royal pain in our behinds, but very well thought out and played!

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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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maximus wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:38 pm
Lurker wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:58 pm
Oh I forgot about Imps ... I love imps always have, and in the on again off again Monday night Masque of Red Death AA game, I have used them extensively !

I think it is to the point that the groups Demon Hunter is on the verge of paranoia regarding them.

Chameleon like, (I added the basic invisibility spell to their powers) poisonous stinger tail mischievous and used as spies, look outs massagers and the like. What more could a GM want !

Need something to sneak into the wedding party and poison the bride by dripping death from their tail and going undetected, send an imp. need something to spy on the party while they talk about what they found out about the evil cabal and then go to sleep, send an imp, need ... wellll I can't say any more because we haven't gotten there yet !
Yea... your imps. Not a fan. And by not a fan, I mean they are a royal pain in our behinds, but very well thought out and played!
Thank you, I aim to please :!: ... If you think that about the Masque Imps, you should see what I'm going to do with the Call of Cath "Sand People" in the up coming Halloween game for the girls face to face game in October.
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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Is only 1 year count as 'thread necromancy' ?

I've been running a Call of Cthluhu / Delta Green game for my girls and there friend, so I've been getting into CoC monsters. I guess I knew there were some deep influences from CoC into D&D, but I never really thought about it. The more I read on CoC monsters the more I thought of the D&D versions of them or monster similar to them

Oh yeah, since my horror flavor is more Poe then straight up Lovecraft melt your mind insanity horror, I've been looking at more 'normal monsters' like vamps werewolves / wererats and Stepehen King things like the tempter in Needful Things too.

With that I have rally started to like the CoC Shoggoth and the 'Proto-Shoggoth' (people that have melded with a shoggoth and have human intelligence with the ability to body morph, stretch arms out, look around corners etc)

Now, that has lead to a monster for ole D&D that I HATED as a player / loved as a DM. The old gibbering mouther ! I can't say it would be a 'favoriate' but it is on the list as a cool monster that is underused !
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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Lurker wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2023 5:55 pm
<snip>

Now, that has lead to a monster for ole D&D that I HATED as a player / loved as a DM. The old gibbering mouther ! I can't say it would be a 'favoriate' but it is on the list as a cool monster that is underused !
Emphasis mine.
That critter is definitely in my TOP 5 of favorites. 8-)
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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As a Castle Keeper:
Monster - The Shadow. Love to toss that undead at players. So creepy.
Magic - Feather Tokens and both cloaks and boots of elven kind
Spell - Magic Missile

As a Player:
Monster - Bandits or Goblinoids. I like fighting head to head weapons bashing.
Magic - Anything the CK will toss our way, but I really love those figurines of wonderous power
Spell - Detect Evil and Detect Magic

As you can tell, all my games have been pretty low level for a long time. Don't get to game very often. My kids have a group of 5th level PCs and that is the highest we got these days.
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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JediOre wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2023 9:14 pm
As a Castle Keeper:
Monster - The Shadow. Love to toss that undead at players. So creepy.
Magic - Feather Tokens and both cloaks and boots of elven kind
Spell - Magic Missile

As a Player:
Monster - Bandits or Goblinoids. I like fighting head to head weapons bashing.
Magic - Anything the CK will toss our way, but I really love those figurines of wonderous power
Spell - Detect Evil and Detect Magic

As you can tell, all my games have been pretty low level for a long time. Don't get to game very often. My kids have a group of 5th level PCs and that is the highest we got these days.
I'm right there with you on that !
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

Post by Go0gleplex »

I did a bit of re-envisioning some of the more typical monsters recently based more on typical myth and/or manga trope. Some of them got a bit more 'culture' to them as well as a bit of evolutionary process wherein those that survive longer get tougher over time.

Players get a really unpleasant surprise when the known is no longer valid. heheheee
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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My favorite C&C is ... first printing! I know that doesn't at all answer the question or follow the thread, but I loved the cover and the font size and the fact that my game group got recognized for playtesting.

As to favorites to follow the thread, I don't have a good answer at all for this. My favorite monsters are the "classics" (orcs, skeletons, goblins, the occasional dragon) and they aren't at all unique to C&C. Favorite magic items are basic +1 swords and +1 shields, and maybe the occasional wand of magic missiles. Again, not so unique to C&C. Favorite spell is whatever I need at that particular moment. Heck, what I like best about C&C is the fact that I can run basic Swords & Sorcery adventures without worrying about wacky stuff.
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Re: Your Favorite C&C

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finarvyn wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2023 12:32 pm
As to favorites to follow the thread, I don't have a good answer at all for this. My favorite monsters are the "classics" (orcs, skeletons, goblins, the occasional dragon) and they aren't at all unique to C&C. Favorite magic items are basic +1 swords and +1 shields, and maybe the occasional wand of magic missiles. Again, not so unique to C&C. Favorite spell is whatever I need at that particular moment. Heck, what I like best about C&C is the fact that I can run basic Swords & Sorcery adventures without worrying about wacky stuff.
I concur with your assessment.
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