Specialty clerics

[Lurker]

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Well, i have not seen it .

Me too me too!

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so I had to do the deconstruction. That and I was growing tired of people wanting to see it.

Serl, I keep hearing about our deconstruction & hope it's in the CK. If it isn't ...... I HOPE IT IS!!!!!

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Druids are just specialty priests done right. I can see the frustration, though. I've personally never seen much point to the whole wizard/illusionist separation, especially since illusionists always struck me as sucky wizards.

I agree with you on the Druids comment, but not the wizar vs Illusionist. I'll admit it takes a lot of planning & player talking to the DM before ever starting a game with an Illusionist in it to work. If both have a good idea of the flavor of the game the Illu can be loads of fun & due some great things!

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Furthermore, such separations simply beg the question. What if I want to play a summoner or a necromancer? Am I just supposed to take the wizard class? Why then does the person who wants to play the illusionist get a different class? Same for clerics and druids. Why, as you ask, is a nature god so special?

I agree with you again on that one. I just don't know where the happy balance is.

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If it's important enough to you that the faiths be separate, start divvying up rules for them. If they don't feel like "clerics" any longer, get rid of the cleric. That word only has the significance you choose to give it. Now ideally there'd be an individual class for everything, but that is a lot of work. So...

A good place to start is by stripping off certain abilities. Turn undead is a great candidate, as is the ability to wear heavy armor. No reason all priests should be these martial people. Fill those gaps with things more representative of a deity. Also consider just tacking abilities on in general. Ask yourself, is it really going to "unbalance" your game?

Couldn't say it better myself!

My 2 cents... To me a cleric is the generic devoted of a specific mythos. Ie Greek = knowing stories of & therefore prayers to many of the greek gods. "Oh we are going to a party well you know Dionysus says.., We are going to war then Athena & Nike would do this but Aries would do that..."

If you want specialty priests then their left & right limits are much more narrow... "You want the wine blessed, you fool I'm a follower of Hera! Now if you are married to a cheat for a husband we can talk!

It just depends on how much time you are willing to put onto the fix. the short easy fix. Everyone is a cleric with a few extra goddies at the cost of a standard power. Lots of time each one gets it's own class, not KISS but worth the pay off in the long run if it fits your world. -IMHO!
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

[Gnostic Gnoll]

Lurker wrote:
I agree with you on the Druids comment, but not the wizar vs Illusionist. I'll admit it takes a lot of planning & player talking to the DM before ever starting a game with an Illusionist in it to work. If both have a good idea of the flavor of the game the Illu can be loads of fun & due some great things!

Alright, I'll admit that illusion magic takes some collaboration with the CK. However, I would contend that this is still just a matter of the distinctions that have been drawn. One could create a summoner class, for instance, where the summoned beings aren't just pawns of the PC and have lives and goals of their own. Suddenly the CK is much more involved in that PCs abilities as well. On the other hand, it would be possible to make illusion magic as much of a by-the-numbers thing as any other type of magic.

But yes, as written, the illusionist does take a lot more collaboration across the screen than the wizard.

Lurker wrote:
I just don't know where the happy balance is.

The devil's in the details, as they say. I still haven't found my happy balance, either. But I did really like Arcana Unearthed, because Monte Cook managed to divvy up the "Classspace" in such an interesting way that even though some distinctions weren't there, the ones that were were interesting enough on their own. At least to me.

There are also classes that tend to stand well by themselves in certain people's minds. In a D&D 3.5 game, for instance, I'll take psionics over magic any day. I find it to be more fun by the rules, and more interesting by the fluff. Of course the problem is that most people never take psionics into consideration when crafting a campaign world, so even if they'll let me play a psion, being the only one in the world gets kind of dull after the first thirty seconds.

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Couldn't say it better myself!

My 2 cents... To me a cleric is the generic devoted of a specific mythos. Ie Greek = knowing stories of & therefore prayers to many of the greek gods. "Oh we are going to a party well you know Dionysus says.., We are going to war then Athena & Nike would do this but Aries would do that..."

If you want specialty priests then their left & right limits are much more narrow... "You want the wine blessed, you fool I'm a follower of Hera! Now if you are married to a cheat for a husband we can talk!

On the player side of things, I think this is definitely the best place to begin no matter how the rules divvy up religion. Everything your character does in a clerical fashion should be based on their idea of what their god/dess demands, or at least with an awareness of it since hardly anyone does what they "should" at all times.

It won't necessarily "make up" for the fact their priest isn't all that special via the rules, but it'll give player and CK alike a better idea of exactly what sort of things they feel this priest should do. No good reason you can't tinker mid-game.

[Dragonhelm]

Gnostic Gnoll wrote:
Alright, I'll admit that illusion magic takes some collaboration with the CK. However, I would contend that this is still just a matter of the distinctions that have been drawn. One could create a summoner class, for instance, where the summoned beings aren't just pawns of the PC and have lives and goals of their own. Suddenly the CK is much more involved in that PCs abilities as well. On the other hand, it would be possible to make illusion magic as much of a by-the-numbers thing as any other type of magic.

I'd just merge the illusionist and wizard spell lists and let the player decide what type of spells he wants to use.

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There are also classes that tend to stand well by themselves in certain people's minds. In a D&D 3.5 game, for instance, I'll take psionics over magic any day. I find it to be more fun by the rules, and more interesting by the fluff. Of course the problem is that most people never take psionics into consideration when crafting a campaign world, so even if they'll let me play a psion, being the only one in the world gets kind of dull after the first thirty seconds.

Agreed. I love psionics, and I think 3rd edition actually added to psionic flavor. The 3.5 rules finally seem to have merged the best of 2e psionics and 3.0 psionics into a nifty whole. I'd like to find a way to simplify some of that for C&C.
_________________
Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus

[csperkins1970]

Dragonhelm wrote:
Agreed. I love psionics, and I think 3rd edition actually added to psionic flavor. The 3.5 rules finally seem to have merged the best of 2e psionics and 3.0 psionics into a nifty whole. I'd like to find a way to simplify some of that for C&C.

THE PSIONICIST

The psionicist (or psion) is a member of a class devoted to the exercise of innate mental powers. Certain individuals have within them a talent for that sort of thing, and these persons can opt to be psionicists.

Many people assume that psionics is just another type of magic. Magic is the ability to shape, control, harness, and utilize natural forces that infuse the game world and surround the characters. It is based on the principle that, through the use of words, gestures, and catalyzing materials of unique power, these external energies can be controlled. The key element of that statement is external energy.

Magical effects are produced externally by manipulating outside forces. The power does not come from inside the spellcaster but from somewhere else. Psionics is the complete opposite of this. The psionicist shapes, controls, harnesses, and utilizes natural forces that infuse his own being. His effort is focused inward rather than outward. He must be completely in touch with and aware of even the tiniest workings of his body and mind. This type of knowledge comes from long and intense meditation coupled with physical extremes. The psionicist finds enlightenment in both complete exhaustion and complete relaxation, in both pain and pleasure. The mind and body are only parts of a much greater unity. Indeed, discussing one without the other, as so many people do, seems nonsensical to a psionicist; they cannot be separated. The body produces energy and vitality; the mind gives it shape and reality. Neither does the psionicist study or pray for his powers. He carries them with him wherever he goes. As long as his mind and body are rested his psionic strength-his powers are available to him.

More than a character of any other class, the psionicist is self-contained. Unlike the fighter and thief, he needs no weapons or tools to practice his art. Unlike the cleric, he needs no deity. Unlike the magic-user, he relies on no outside energies. His power comes from within, and he alone gives it shape. The psionicist strives to unite every aspect of his self into a single, powerful whole. He looks inward to the essence of his own being, and gains control of his subconscious. Through extraordinary discipline, contemplation, and self -awareness, he unlocks the full potential of his mind.
Psionicist
Level Progression: As per the Cleric class
BtH Progression: As per the Rogue class
Prime Requisite: Charisma
Hit Die: d6
Alignment: Any non-chaotic
Races: Dwarf, elf, gnome, half-elf, half-orc, halfling, human
Weapons: Broadsword, club, dagger, dart, throwing hammer, longsword, quarterstaff, scimitar, short sword and spear
Armor: None*
Abilities: Attack and defense modes, psionic powers

*a psionicist may not use psionic powers, attack modes or defense modes in armor.
Attack and Defense Modes: All psionicists, as they progress in their training, master offensive and defensive modes of mental combat. All of these modes, except for psionic blast, may only be employed against psionicists or psionically active creatures.

These attack and defense modes make use of power points and require varied levels of expertise, just like psionic powers (see below). They differ from powers in that attack and defense modes do not count against the psionicists limit of known powers. All psionicists of sufficient level have access to the modes listed below.

Attack modes may be used once per round, using the listed power points with each use. Defensive modes take one round to activate, requiring the expenditure of listed number of power point. Once activated, a psionicist only need expend 1 additional power point each round to maintain that defense and is free to take other actions when doing so (maintaining defense modes does not require concentration on the psionicists part).
Attack Modes/Required Level/Power Points/Range, Area of Effect
Mind Thrust / 1 / 1 / 30 range, 1 creature
Ego Whip / 4 / 2 / 30 range, 1 creature
ID insinuation / 4 / 2 / 30 range, 10 radius
Psionic Blast / 6 / 3 / 30 cone
Psychic Crush / 10 / 5 / 30 range, 1 creature
Mind Thrust: Mind Thrust is a stabbing attack that seeks to short the synapses of the defender. It deals 1d8 points of damage to a psionically active creature. The defender may make a Wisdom save to negate this damage.
Ego Whip: Ego Whip attacks the ego, either by feelings of inferiority and worthlessness or by superiority and megalomania. The attack affects but a single psionically active creature, dealing 1-2 point of Charisma damage and stunning the foe for 1d4 rounds. The defender may make a Charisma save for no damage. Those making their save are not stunned.
Id Insinuation: Id Insinuation seeks to loose the uncontrolled subconscious mind of the defender, pitting it against the super-ego. The attack affects all psionically active creatures in 10 radius, acting as a confusion spell for such targets. A successful Wisdom save negates the confusion effect.
Psionic Blast: Psionic Blast is a wave of brain force, in effect much like "stunning news" to the mind. It is the only psionic attack mode that can affect non-psionic creatures, stunning all creatures in 30 cone for 1 round. A Wisdom save negates this effect.
Psychic Crush: Psychic Crush is a massive assault upon all neurons in the brain of a psionically active creature, attempting to destroy all by a massive overload of signals. The target must make a Wisdom save or collapse, unconscious and dying, at -1 hit points. If the target succeeds on its save, it takes 3d6 points of damage.

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Defense Modes /Required Level/Power Points/Range, Area of Effect
Thought Shield / 4 / 2 / Personal
Mental Barrier / 6 / 3 / Personal
Intellect Fortress / 8 / 4 / Personal, 10 x 10 cylinder
Tower of Iron Will / 10 / 5 / Personal, 10 radius sphere
Mind Blank/ 14 / 7 / Personal
Thought Shield: Thought Shield cloaks the mind so as to hide first one part, then another. It grants the psionicist Psionic Resistance of +10.
Mental Barrier: Mental Barrier is a carefully built thought repetition wall that exposes only that small area of the psionicists mind. This power grants the psionicist a +4 bonus to their saves and armor class versus psionic attacks.
Intellect Fortress: Intellect Fortress is a defense that calls forth the powers of the ego and super-ego to stop attacks within 10 of the psionicist. All damage dealt by psionic powers and attack modes, including ability damage, is halved for those within the fortress.
Tower of Iron Will: Tower of Iron Will relies only upon the super-ego to build an unassailable haven for the brain. It effects all within 10 of the psionicist, granting Psionic Resistance of +15 to all creatures within 10.
Mind Blank: Mind Blank attempts to hide the mind from attack, making its parts unidentifiable. This power works exactly as the spell mind blank except that it defends against psionic devices and powers that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts for 24 hours.
Psionic Powers: Psions use powers selected from the Psionicist Powers table below. Unlike spellcasters, psionicists can use any power he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Additionally, instead of having a set number of powers of various power levels that they may use each day, a psionicist expends power points in order to use their powers.

To use a power, a psionicist must have a minimum charisma of 9. Their maximum power level is equal to one half of their charisma, rounding fractions up, as shown on the following table. A psionicists power point allotment and maximum power level are given on the table.

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Psionic Power Usage Per Day
Psionicist level/Power Points/Maximum Power Level/Required Charisma
1 / 5 / 1 / 9
2 / 7 / 1 / 9
3 / 9 / 1 / 9
4 / 13 / 2 / 9
5 / 17 / 2 / 9
6 / 25 / 3 / 9
7 / 33 / 3 / 9
8 / 45 / 4 / 9
9 / 57 / 4 / 9
10 / 72 / 5 / 9
11 / 87 / 5 / 9
12 / 104 / 6 / 11
13 / 121 / 6 / 11
14 / 140 / 7 / 13
15 / 159 / 7 / 13
16 / 182 / 8 / 15
17 / 205 / 8 / 15
18 / 230 / 9 / 17
19 / 255 / 9 / 17
20 / 280 / 9 / 17

A power requires the expenditure of a number of points equal to its power level. 0-level powers require the psionicist to expend of a power point per usage.

An 8th level power would require 8 power points in order to function while a 4th level power would require the expenditure of 4 power points.

He can use any power he knows at any time, assuming he has enough power points available for a power of that particular level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which powers hell use.

A psionicist of 9th level with 54 power points, for example, may use up to 4th level powers. If he so chose he could use 13-4th level abilities (costing 52 points) and use the 2 remaining points as he saw fit, could use 54-1st level abilities, could use 18-3rd level powers, etc.

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Bonus Power Points: In addition to the level-based power points a psionicist gains, he receives bonus power points each day if his charisma is 13 or higher. The following table shows the bonus points gained for having an exceptional charisma:
Psionicists Level /Charisma Score

13-15 / 16-17 / 18 / 19 / 20 / 21 / 22 / 23 / 24 / 25
1 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 3
2 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 3
3 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 3
4 1 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 4 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 9
5 1 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 4 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 9
6 1 / 3 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 7 / 9 / 12 / 12 / 18
7 1 / 3 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 7 / 9 / 12 / 12 / 18
8 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 10 / 11 / 13 / 16 / 20 / 30
9 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 10 / 11 / 13 / 16 / 20 / 30
10 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 15 / 16 / 18 / 21 / 25 / 40
11 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 15 / 16 / 18 / 21 / 25 / 40
12 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 15 / 22 / 24 / 27 / 31 / 46
13 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 15 / 22 / 24 / 27 / 31 / 46
14 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 15 / 22 / 31 / 34 / 38 / 53
15 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 15 / 22 / 31 / 34 / 38 / 53
16 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 15 / 22 / 31 / 42 / 46 / 61
17 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 15 / 22 / 31 / 42 / 46 / 61
18 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 15 / 22 / 31 / 42 / 55 / 70
19 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 15 / 22 / 31 / 42 / 55 / 70
20 1 / 3 / 6 / 10 / 15 / 22 / 31 / 42 / 55 / 70

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Known Powers: A psionicists selection of powers is extremely limited. A psionicist begins play knowing four 0-level powers and two 1st-level powers of their choice. At each new psionicist level, he gains one or more new powers, as indicated on the Psionics Powers Known table. The number of powers known is not affected by his charisma score.
Powers Known
Psionics / Powers Known
level / 0 / 1st / 2nd / 3rd / 4th / 5th / 6th / 7th / 8th / 9th
1 / 4 / 2
2 / 5 / 2
3 / 5 / 3
4 / 6 / 3 / 1
5 / 6 / 4 / 2
6 / 7 / 4 / 2 / 1
7 / 7 / 5 / 3 / 2
8 / 8 / 5 / 3 / 2 / 1
9 / 8 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2
10 / 9 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1
11 / 9 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2
12 / 9 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1
13 / 9 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 2
14 / 9 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1
15 / 9 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 2
16 / 9 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1
17 / 9 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3 / 2
18 / 9 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3 / 2 / 1
19 / 9 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 2
20 / 9 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 3

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered psionicist level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a psionicist can choose to learn a new power in place of one he already knows. In effect, the psionicist loses the old power in exchange for the new one. The new powers level must be the same as that of the power being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level psionicist power known. A psionicist may swap only a single power at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the power at the same time that he gains new powers known for the level.
Recovery of Power Points: Psionic strength points expended in any way can be restored by resting for a period of 8 hours each day. The character need not sleep for the entirety of that time, but must refrain from movement, combat, power use or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period.

If the character's rest is interrupted, each interruption adds one hour to the total amount of time the character has to rest, in order to clear his mind.

If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, the character still must have eight hours of restful calm each day before preparing recovering power points.
Followers for High-Level Psionicists: Upon reaching 10th level, the Psionicist attains the title of Master, and can found a school if he desires. He will have to outfit a lab and assemble a library. Costs for this are similar to those for outfitting a resident alchemist or sage.

The school will attract 2-5 students (1st level psionicists), who conform to the category of followers generally, and can advance in levels. They will not pay for their tuition, but the Master could always take students for pay, of course. However, having more than 5 students at one time (whether they are followers or customers) will cut significantly into the Masters adventuring/research time.
Starting Funds: Psionicists begin play with 6-36 gold pieces (6d6) with which to purchase their initial equipment.

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Psionic Powers

For a list of powers see the Unearthed Arcana pdf on my website.

I'll add them later BUT am going out for a bit.

[Lurker]

Psi makes my head hurt
I guess it goes back to the first game I saw psi used. The GM let his wife play a psi & she was untouchable...... Not fun that!
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

[serleran]

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The GM let his wife play a psi & she was untouchable.

Are you sure it was because she was a psi?

[Lurker]

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Are you sure it was because she was a psi?

That was the excuse anyway, but honestly, I think there was some hanky panky going on behind the scene!
It was just annoying having a good thief trying to sneak past the guard and her going dont waist your time, Ill read his mind to find out where the traps are, where the money is, where the duke is sleeping, put the guard to sleep, & mind whip the duke in his sleep to kill him A hand full of dice rolled behind the screen and wow its all taken care of

Ill give CSs class a try if anyone I CK wants a PSI (after getting real good with the rules & such) instead of my normal NOPE, not in my world answer.
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

[Birthright]

Fizz wrote:
Oh, i'm sure that can work. But since Birthright was built for 2nd Ed AD&D, the faiths are much more well defined than the bit-of-frosting treatment that 3E does to the cleric. Ideally, i'd like to retain that high level of distinctiveness between the faiths.

-Fizz

So how is this conversion project going, Fizz?

[rabindranath72]

Greyelf has done a nice version of the psionicist on his page (which I cannot find right now)

[Fizz]

Birthright wrote:
So how is this conversion project going, Fizz?

Do you mean the whole project, or specifically the faiths?

The project as a whole is going slowly, but i've written up new magician and guilder classes (as well as a couple others that fit in Birthright, but wouldn't need be specific to the setting).

The priest conversion is going even slower. Every priest in 2nd Ed was essentially it's own class. So that means new powers, new spells, etc, for 11 deities. I might just use the 2nd Ed PH for everything, and drop it in to C&C as-is. It'd probably be just as effective.

Fortunately, most things in 2nd Ed convert to C&C quite readily. So much of the `conversion' is really just drop-in and play.

-Fizz

[Birthright]

Fizz wrote:
Do you mean the whole project, or specifically the faiths?

The project as a whole is going slowly, but i've written up new magician and guilder classes (as well as a couple others that fit in Birthright, but wouldn't need be specific to the setting).

The priest conversion is going even slower. Every priest in 2nd Ed was essentially it's own class. So that means new powers, new spells, etc, for 11 deities. I might just use the 2nd Ed PH for everything, and drop it in to C&C as-is. It'd probably be just as effective.

Fortunately, most things in 2nd Ed convert to C&C quite readily. So much of the `conversion' is really just drop-in and play.

-Fizz

I was talking about the project as a whole, since I'm considering a similar undertaking for when I get a chance to run some C&C. I'd be very interested in seeing your magician and guilder (and the other classes you've developed).

I have a write up for each of the faiths that are basically modifications of the C&C cleric. I'm not entirely happy with them, but I can send you a copy of my MS Word .doc of them. I have also C&C-ised the Cerilian PC races (I kept the abilities from 2e, but wrote them up C&C style). I could send you a copy of that too. PM me if you'd like to share info.

I think you are right regarding the faiths - just C&C-ify the 2e writeups and use them as is. One other thing I can share with you is my break-down of the C&C cleric and druid spell lists into 2e priest spell "spheres". That will simplify the process of generating spell lists for each faith.